02-08-2003 04:56									#1
	Taking 'some fight' into the enemy's lands Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

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Teaching GoW a lesson (you're right, you're right, we shouldn't let it cloud our judgement).

Still, psych warfare is important enough, and the outcome of a bold and successful move against them could be less troops heading for the front, and more troops scattered trying to defend an impossibly long stretch of land, out of the (justifiable) fear of another landing (don't forget the loss of scouting capabilities, and staging points for a sea borne assault.

What I was thinking about is using 1-2 galleys, to land a small and manueverable force of WC's (or maybe something heavier, if we can spare, but I doubt we do) to attack undefended cities, without the intent of keeping them (mostly 1 pop cities that would auto raze, like Port and the cities around).

The benefits are nill in terms of hurting their war-production, and we're to lose any serious confrontation with their troops while using such a small force, especially once even one or two riders come along. There is also the risk of Lego getting alarmed and choosing to intervene- but this is a question of when, but I think we still have some time before that happens, unless Lego has been preparing for it for a while... (perhaps Vox could help with that, hmm...), but like I said, the risk is minimal, the cost is small, and the benefits might be worth it, in the long term.

I think we all agree there will come a time, not so far in the future, when we'll want to attack GoW or ND. The first question is who's first (or perhaps both at the same time)? I'd say GoW first- being an easier target, as well as allowing us to close on ND from 2 sides (should RP fall) or from 3 sides (should RP, with our help, manages to reclaim their lost cities). Do we want to land soon, in less than 5 turns, with a small force, or we rather suprise them with a nasty stack at their doorstep?

I'd side with a quick 'in-out' assault pretty soon, also because we
need to get them off our backs, and throw them off-balance (or at least try to), so we could help RP save what little they have left.

Ideas? Comments?

	02-08-2003 05:21									#2
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The only really good target is Port Isolation. WC's are just going to be leader fodder for GoW elsewhere. A WC comes within 3 movement of any of their connected cities and we should assume it's dead.

IMO, we need to bleed ND and GoW's GA's off, mostly playing 'defensively'. (that can include Inchon type offensives) RP needs cities on Bob, but we really don't. If worst comes to worst, we could give RP Vox's old land so they can make it productive, and just fight free from any city ties on Bob. It's not so much important that we control the land, as that ND/GoW don't.

Of course if we can keep RP around in Spain, fight off GoW/ND, and have RP set up for a good GA about the time GoW/ND leave theirs, it makes things a lot easier. That's why I think we should focus almost everything we have to defense of RP right now. Units in the N just need to block landing sites and prepare for when we have an excess in the S and can begin making inroads in the N.

	02-08-2003 05:38									#3
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I think there is some merit here.

Obviously, freaking GoW out about the north would be a good thing. What is the min investment required? Say... 2-4 Wcs, and 2 Galleys.

Worth it, IMHO.

	02-08-2003 05:43									#4
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I think the risk is too high that we'd end up throwing away a couple potential knights for nothing. On roads, Riders have a range of nine tiles, while the best WCs can do in hostile territory is two. And it's hard for me to imagine GoW having sent newly built riders on a long journey to the southern front and leaving their core bare once they realized they might end up fighting us after all.

	02-08-2003 05:48									#5
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It is possible that GoW are keeping a few spare riders outside our range of view.
I would do it if I were them.

	02-08-2003 05:53									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus I think there is some merit here. Obviously, freaking GoW out about the north would be a good thing. What is the min investment required? Say... 2-4 Wcs, and 2 Galleys.

Would we freak them out, or would they just be thrilled at our throwing away units like that? And if we would freak them out, would their reaction to it work in our favor or against us?

	02-08-2003 05:57									#7
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OK, then, how about waiting a bit and doing it with Knights landing on hills or mountains?

	02-08-2003 06:02									#8
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If we're talking knights, then I'd rather send them to the real battlefield, not the psychological one.
I wouldn't mind if we were risking WCs, though. But I wouldn't cross before we have replacements for those WCs, so that the anti-landing wall will stay on while we cross to the PoI area.

	02-08-2003 06:13									#9
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What we could do is (if we can spare them) send galleys 'round the north, who says they need units. Gow will have to follow them and or engage, so at least we tie-up some of there forces.

	02-08-2003 06:57									#10
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While I would love to send some harrassing units over, I think this would be a case where we go over to stay. An easily repulsed invasion, which 2-4 wcs or knights would be, would be more harmful than good, IMHO. Better to wait for a mix of 10-12 units, I would think, at the very least.

	02-08-2003 08:33									#11
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I think a lot depends on what GoW does with their forces. If they stay home (aside from the initial stack) and let us and RP double-team ND, I'd be happy to leave them alone until ND is conquered. If they send another major wave of Riders to the south, that's a signal we might want to launch a major invasion in the north.

What I'm leaning toward is building a few vet galleys to help guard against a GoW invasion attempt up north, coupled with using some of our southern galleys for patrol and some as part of the northern anti-invasion force once we don't need so many to shuttle troops. Later, whatever units of the northern galley force are assembled at the time can participate in an invasion if we want to launch one.

Of course that assumes GoW doesn't sue for peace when the bulk of their Rider stack dies.

	03-08-2003 14:38									#12
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I'm more and more starting to think that taking a couple of cities is not the right way for us. I mean, sure, it will help us in dealing with GoW, and it will annoy them greatly, however we lose what minimal support we have from Lego once we do it. If we were to invade GoW, it should be decisive... land 30 units, and take them down in 10 turns or so. Then we face only Lego and ND, and not 3 teams.

Also, it would be best if at that point, RP is in better shape again, so they can help, instead of us helping them. As powerful as we are, we can't go against 3 teams at once... at least not alone.

DeepO

	06-08-2003 21:03									#13
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Don't send our boys on a Dieppe-style raid. That will mostl likely result in our units getting killed for little or no gain.

Screw that. When we invade, we come full-bore.

Don't bring a knife to a gun fight.

-Arrian

	07-08-2003 00:56									#14
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I think I can agree with the "hit them hard" doctrine- but I think this gives us no excuse of preparing for it as we speak- I believe GoW is soft and vulnerable, and that we can take advantage of that, we'll have enough forces on Bob in 3-4 turns, so I suggest we start plan ahead, for the time of the crusader is upon us!

Or you could say we rather have a hard and gruesome fight over ND's territory first? I'd personally rather let our 'friends' handle ND for now, at least keep them at bay (after taking Z and Leon, for which they'll probably need our help), while our forces are busy making the real headway, and also operate closer to their homebase.

	07-08-2003 07:52									#15
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it'll probably be best if we first deal with the GoW stack, then see if we can win some of the RP lost cities back. Only after this, we'll have anough troops to go to the GoW core in force...

DeepO

	07-08-2003 14:52									#16
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Have you checked RP's report- I'd say GoW's stack is handling us, and RP is no longer worth seriously protecting- they're pratically gone, It's time we pack our bags and head towards GoW, or ND...

	07-08-2003 14:58									#17
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Don't write it off so soon, zeit.

	07-08-2003 15:25									#18
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I certainly don't, but I do feel like we're concentrating too much effort where we're losing any edge we've had (like the RoP with RP), while we're not really using our forces. we wanted to destroy GoW's stack- I can't see them giving us the chance to do that- that's all I'm saying. Not that RP is doomed, just that helping them right now with more forces instead of striking GoW or ND works against our interests, IMHO.

	07-08-2003 15:28									#19
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And one more thing- I don't think GoW will send anymore to the front- they have all they need to destroy RP with what they and ND have there- GoW's defense will grow stronger and stronger every turn- we must take advantage of it while they haven't harnessed their GA yet.