03-08-2003 13:43									#31
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quote: Nice! I am dying to get my hands on some... did you see any strange beings or entities during your experience?

heck i still think that DMT cancels gravity or something because i say everything like i was against the ceiling of my room. and yes of course dont forget the midgit elvis` that walked around drinking milk...



and sorry to hear about that

	03-08-2003 14:09									#32
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quote: Originally posted by DeathByTheSword i personnelly believe in abortion like stated in the law. and i do not believe that babies become human until they get self aware. and with self aware I do not mean producing brain waves...every animal does that. but i mean seeing you as a person with memories. If you think back to your childhood...you first and oldest memory is the moment you start living. (i am not saying you dont have the same right before that time) but Before that time...you do not actively remember and live.

my first memories are of age 6 or so

and those are likely false

so I wasn't human before that?

Jon Miller

	03-08-2003 14:10									#33
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Exactly, Jon.

	03-08-2003 16:07									#34
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Well, if you need a hand, don't hesitate to PM me Zylka.

quote: i personnelly believe in abortion like stated in the law. and i do not believe that babies become human until they get self aware. and with self aware I do not mean producing brain waves...every animal does that. but i mean seeing you as a person with memories.

Another answer, what about Alzheimer patients? Should we kill them because they are no longer self-aware?

quote: PETA: Eating meat is like the holocaust Some anti-abortionists: Abortion is like the holocaust so the only logical conclusion from this is that Abortion is like eating meat. Mmmmm, tasty.

Ixnay:
Who came first, the prolifers or the PETA folks?

Make no mistake, if abortion kills a living human person, than the comparison of between abortion and the holocaust becomes very difficult to dismiss.

	03-08-2003 16:59									#35
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i never said you should kill them......and i also wont agrue that as a baby you are human....but i do not believe that you are a person...in the subconcions maybe but not a PERSON with an identity....but this is all a bit off topic

	03-08-2003 17:35									#36
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Indisputable Iraqi Civilian Facts:

quote: FOR ALL IRAQI CIVILIANS -HEART IS BEATING -BRAIN WAVES HAVE BEEN RECORD -THEY CAN SQUINT, SWALLOW, AND CAN MAKE A FIST -THEY HAVE FINGERPRINTS AND CAN KICK -THEY ARE SENSITIVE TO HEAT, TOUCH, LIGHT AND NOISE -THEY CAN SUCK THEIR THUMBS -ALL BODY SYSTEMS ARE WORKING THE US GOVERNMENT IS DIRECTLY OR INDIRECTLY RESPONSIBLE FOR 6000-7700 IRAQI CIVILIAN DEATHS SINCE THE START OF THE IRAQI CONFLICT

This is not a threadjack. My point is, all societies are prepared to sacrifice innocent human lives when it's in the society's interest to do so. The issue is not whether "abortion stops a beating heart"; the issue is whether it's in the interest of a society to stop that heart. I would argue that it is -- that society is better served by an aborted fetus than by the birth of an unwanted child.

	03-08-2003 23:50									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Zylka quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara self-awareness. quote: -BRAIN WAVES HAVE BEEN RECORDED AT 40 DAYS

So, do you agree that cows are human and self-aware because they have brain waves?

	04-08-2003 00:31									#38
	Re: Re: Indisputable Abortion FACTS: Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Mordoch Easy, all you've done is demonstrated that the baby is on the level of most types of animal life. You haven't demostrated that the baby has the same traits as actually born humans such as their sophisticated thought processes.

Thus, you think murdering someone who's mental insane is ok?

	04-08-2003 00:35									#39
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quote: Originally posted by DeathByTheSword i personnelly believe in abortion like stated in the law. and i do not believe that babies become human until they get self aware. and with self aware I do not mean producing brain waves...every animal does that. but i mean seeing you as a person with memories. If you think back to your childhood...you first and oldest memory is the moment you start living. (i am not saying you dont have the same right before that time) but Before that time...you do not actively remember and live.

Babies don't remember anything before the age of 3 anyway.

How does a just been born baby have self awareness?

	04-08-2003 00:39									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly Indisputable Iraqi Civilian Facts: I would argue that it is -- that society is better served by an aborted fetus than by the birth of an unwanted child.

An unwanted child might be loved and wanted as soon as the parents see it.
Much 'wanted childs' cause much problem.

Not to speak about the mothers who are frustrated after the abortion, and feel guilty for the rest of their lives, that's not good for society as well.

And last but not least, the mothers who decide to abort because pressure by family / father of the child / society.

	04-08-2003 00:50									#41
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Well, at least that proves they are alive (whether or not they are "human" is another matter, but being alive is enough for me).

Do you think that a person with advanced Alzheimer's has any self-awareness anymore?

No, and that doesn't mean they must automatically be disposed of (even though some families choose to do so, it's within their right, perhaps).

Btw, I'm pro-choice from a legal standpoint, but pro-life from a personal standpoint.

	04-08-2003 00:53									#42
	Re: Re: Re: Indisputable Abortion FACTS: Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by CyberShy Thus, you think murdering someone who's mental insane is ok?

Generally the mentally insane DO have sophisticated though processes, they are simply screwed up. Read my other posts for more info.

	04-08-2003 01:12									#43
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quote: Originally posted by CyberShy An unwanted child might be loved and wanted as soon as the parents see it. Much 'wanted childs' cause much problem. Not to speak about the mothers who are frustrated after the abortion, and feel guilty for the rest of their lives, that's not good for society as well. And last but not least, the mothers who decide to abort because pressure by family / father of the child / society.

But that's not the question. The question is, which better serves the social interest: allowing women to choose to abort, or compelling all women to carry their pregnancies to term? I submit the former better serves the interest of society.

The traditional counter-argument to this is that a fetus is an "innocent life." I will cheerfully concede this, and point out that societies regularly sacrifice "innocent lives" when it serves their interests -- hence my Iraqi civilian casualty example.

	04-08-2003 01:13									#44
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quote: Originally posted by JCG Do you think that a person with advanced Alzheimer's has any self-awareness anymore?

Actually, I strongly support euthanasia for this kind of cases. Better stop the suffering of someone who cannot expect anything else from life (I prefer when Euthanasia is performed at the request of the target, but in this case it is impossible).

	04-08-2003 01:18									#45
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quote: as well as a wonderful intoxicant when crushed and mixed in with a shot of Jack Daniel's

	04-08-2003 01:25									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Actually, I strongly support euthanasia for this kind of cases. Better stop the suffering of someone who cannot expect anything else from life (I prefer when Euthanasia is performed at the request of the target, but in this case it is impossible).

Perhaps...but it can be quite painful for some people to take such a decision when the "victim" was their former significant other, for example (a relative of mine is one such case).

Abortions should cause similar concerns, if not greater, because in those cases the "victim" certainly can expect a lot from life, if allowed to develop and survive.

So the "it's not alive/human (yet) so I can kill it if I want with no guilt" argument doesn't have much weight then (of course, abortion could be done for other reasons, ie: rape, completely unwanted child that would be abandoned to its fate).

	04-08-2003 01:27									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly But that's not the question. The question is, which better serves the social interest: allowing women to choose to abort, or compelling all women to carry their pregnancies to term? I submit the former better serves the interest of society.

I say that you can't know before in which way the society will be served better.
In fact the dutch society is currently served best by any baby that's going to be born, otherwise we'll have too much old people in 25 years compared to the young ones. (who have to earn the money)

An unwanted baby will most obviously still been loved.
It's still your child.

I know several teenage mothers who kept their babies, eventhough they were unwanted. Right now nobody knows anymore these babies were unwanted.

Of course things might turn out wrong with 'unwanted babies', but it happens to 'wanted babies' as well.

	04-08-2003 02:18									#48
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quote: Not to speak about the mothers who are frustrated after the abortion, and feel guilty for the rest of their lives, that's not good for society as well.

My mother had an abortion. She doesn't regret it one bit. My parents were at a time in their lives when they couldn't afford to give a child a good life. Abortion is a decision that should be between a mother, father, and doctor... or mother and doctor in the case of rape, incest, dead-beat dad, etc... NOT the government.

	04-08-2003 02:37									#49
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fetus has the same rights as every other human. It is a human life and has the right to live. Why does a fetus have less rights then say a retarded person. And how can you say a fetus is not self aware? What proof do you have?

	04-08-2003 02:38									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Sava My mother had an abortion. She doesn't regret it one bit. My parents were at a time in their lives when they couldn't afford to give a child a good life. Abortion is a decision that should be between a mother, father, and doctor... or mother and doctor in the case of rape, incest, dead-beat dad, etc... NOT the government.

Their is adoption. Many childless couples that would want to have a baby. Why do people feel they have the right to end a life because they think they cant take care of it? If someone killed their pet because they said they could not take care of it they would be charge with a crime, but I guess a fetus is lower then even an animal in your eyes.

	04-08-2003 02:47									#51
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Jack... there are hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of kids already awaiting adoption. If there were no abortion, there would be 40 million more unwanted children. It's humane to end the life before birth rather than to put children in some failing institution.

	04-08-2003 02:48									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Sava Jack... there are hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of kids already awaiting adoption. If there were no abortion, there would be 40 million more unwanted children. It's humane to end the life before birth rather than to put children in some failing institution.

If my parents could not take care of me, and had a choice I would want to be born and not aborted.

	04-08-2003 03:27									#53
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quote: I would want to be born and not aborted.

so?

	04-08-2003 03:58									#54
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quote: Originally posted by CyberShy An unwanted baby will most obviously still been loved. It's still your child.

This highly depends of the circumstances. Some mothers may be able to overcome the difficulties that come with an unwanted baby, and some others do not.
There are mothers of unwanted kids who treat them like ****, as a form of petty revenge towards the father; I hardly call these often violent mothers "loving".
There are mothers who cannot raise their kids/give them love because they have to work too much to have both ends meet. Yes, giving love to a child is work and takes time, although many people seem to think loving a kid is enough. Abstract love is not enough, the kid must recieve real manifestations of this love (as mundane as changing the diapers, or as great as spending a few hours raising its morale after a personal failure) etc. Too many mothers are not in the material situation to satisfy this need.

I agree things can go sour with wanted babies too. But that's no reason not to give a choice to the mother.

	04-08-2003 04:28									#55
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"An unwanted baby will most obviously still been loved.
It's still your child."

How is this relevant? Does someone not being loved take away their right to life?

	04-08-2003 04:39									#56
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quote: Originally posted by St Leo So, do you agree that cows are human and self-aware because they have brain waves?

Sorry

A - A cow is indeed self aware. I'm not the one who defined that as terms for being homosapien, in any case
B - A human fetus is NOT AN ANIMAL. Is this too advanced for you, or are you simply playing evasive semantics to trick yourself as well as the opposition?

End of discussion (unless you'd like to describe what defines "human self awareness"? Didn't think so.)

	04-08-2003 04:51									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Zylka Sorry A - A cow is indeed self aware. I'm not the one who defined that as terms for being homosapien, in any case B - A human fetus is NOT AN ANIMAL. Is this too advanced for you, or are you simply playing evasive semantics to trick yourself as well as the opposition? End of discussion (unless you'd like to describe what defines "human self awareness"? Didn't think so.)

YOU'RE the one who insists on making this distinction. I would argue that many animals have more sophisticated thought processes than fetuses do at 3 months. (I.E. Chimpanzees and Dolphins.)

	04-08-2003 04:55									#58
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Whats the difference between a fetus and a tumor?

That it chews on its fingers ?

Last edited by Atahualpa on 04-08-2003 at 05:05

	04-08-2003 05:00									#59
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quote: If my parents could not take care of me, and had a choice I would want to be born and not aborted.

You would not be in the position to make demands when you are completely unable to survive on your own

What if your mother would die at your birth? What if Bush was your father, would you then still like to be born?

	04-08-2003 05:16									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Mordoch YOU'RE the one who insists on making this distinction. I would argue that many animals have more sophisticated thought processes than fetuses do at 3 months. (I.E. Chimpanzees and Dolphins.)

Actually I'm not. Rather than simply denying, I'm attacking an irrelevant distinction made by someone else:

quote: Originally posted by Chegitz Guevara A severely handicapped person still has one thing a fetus doesn't, self-awareness.

Try reading all of the replies, next time.