03-08-2003 12:16									#1
	Indisputable Abortion FACTS: Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: 11 WEEKS AFTER CONCEPTION -HEART IS BEATING (SINCE 18-25 DAYS) -BRAIN WAVES HAVE BEEN RECORDED AT 40 DAYS -THE BABY SQUINTS, SWALLOWS, AND CAN MAKE A FIST -THE BABY HAS FINGERPRINTS AND CAN KICK -THE BABY IS SENSITIVE TO HEAT, TOUCH, LIGHT AND NOISE -THE BABY SUCKS HIS OR HER THUMB -ALL BODY SYSTEMS ARE WORKING THE BABY WEIGHS ABOUT 1 OUNCE AND IS 2 1/2 TO 3 INCHES LONG THE BABY COULD FIT COMFORTABLY IN THE PALM OF YOUR HAND

So - I'd like to hear just how any of you might refute the fact that a 3 month old fetus (at the LEAST!) IS a human being - supported clearly by this evidence

	03-08-2003 12:18									#2
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A side of Zylka I hadn't seen before.

As for the actual concept, could you provide us with a source? It'd really be helpful.

	03-08-2003 12:21									#3
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But can the baby solve complex multivariable calculus equations?

I THINK NOT

	03-08-2003 12:24									#4
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The government is capable of creating a machine is capable of creating a machine that does the exact same things.

BTW: I do believe humans are humans at 3 months.

	03-08-2003 12:25									#5
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quote: But can the baby solve complex multivariable calculus equations? I THINK NOT

HAHAHAHA

...and those facts, are relatively common medical knowledge, I grabbed them specifically from a rather gory anti abortion site a while ago that I can't share, but will look for like sources.

In any case - the pro abortionist will first say "let's see a source for those facts", and then when given - will argue: "OH, well none of that stuff matters in defining life, anyway!"

OH I SEE! SO I GUESS AS LONG AS WE SHOVE A SERRATED ROD THROUGH IT'S SPINE BEFORE IT SEES LIGHT, WE'RE IN THE CLEAR!

	03-08-2003 12:26									#6
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Zylka, I'm ashamed of you. You should know better than that--I admit when I'm beat.

But where is the source, actually?

Oh, and yes, babies are humans at 3 months.

	03-08-2003 12:28									#7
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No, I'm not accusing you Mitchi - just pointing out the obvious and inane response of our pro-choice friends. I can't source it, Mods will have my ass. Last time I sourced a gross site, of rating camel toes - I was banned on the spot

	03-08-2003 12:30									#8
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Fugly has an excellent Victims thingamadoodad where they tell an abortionist that they abortioned a 4 year old baby. A great read lol

	03-08-2003 12:32									#9
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I will PM you the source

Hey Ixnie! Want to keep me up to date on upcoming SA goldmine themes? I have a fairly universal photoshop project that I want to submit when the time is right, to see how it goes before I join the forums

	03-08-2003 12:33									#10
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I say abortion should only be allowed if the mother is endangered or the baby would live a horrible horrible life.

	03-08-2003 12:33									#11
	Re: Indisputable Abortion FACTS: Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Zylka quote: 11 WEEKS AFTER CONCEPTION -HEART IS BEATING (SINCE 18-25 DAYS) -BRAIN WAVES HAVE BEEN RECORDED AT 40 DAYS -THE BABY SQUINTS, SWALLOWS, AND CAN MAKE A FIST -THE BABY HAS FINGERPRINTS AND CAN KICK -THE BABY IS SENSITIVE TO HEAT, TOUCH, LIGHT AND NOISE -THE BABY SUCKS HIS OR HER THUMB -ALL BODY SYSTEMS ARE WORKING THE BABY WEIGHS ABOUT 1 OUNCE AND IS 2 1/2 TO 3 INCHES LONG THE BABY COULD FIT COMFORTABLY IN THE PALM OF YOUR HAND So - I'd like to hear just how any of you might refute the fact that a 3 month old fetus (at the LEAST!) IS a human being - supported clearly by this evidence

Easy, all you've done is demonstrated that the baby is on the level of most types of animal life. You haven't demostrated that the baby has the same traits as actually born humans such as their sophisticated thought processes.

	03-08-2003 12:37									#12
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I see. And when another human being fails to display this as well [ie.) the severely handicapped/ mentally retarded] - we lance them because society and/or the mother have no need for them?

Gee, I don't want to name names... but you know what kind of historical party advocated this approach?

	03-08-2003 12:40									#13
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Oh look! All that post car accident quadrapolegic does in his fancy wheelchair is drool and moan. He doesn't even have the same traits as normal humans, such as their sophisticated thought processes - I mean the guy doesn't even know when to eat or deficate anymore, how could he know anything else!

Well, the state does not want this burdne. I guess we'll have to KILL HIM because he only displays the same functions of life as a severely retarded dog! THAT'S A GREAT IDEA

	03-08-2003 12:40									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Zylka I see. And when another human being fails to display this as well [ie.) the severely handicapped/ mentally retarded] - we lance them because society and/or the mother have no need for them? Gee, I don't want to name names... but you know what kind of historical party advocated this approach?

I believe even retards have higher mental processes than babies during the period you have mentioned. More significantly I believe that individuals should arbitrarily get most of the rights of other people once they are born, this makes things straightforward. Note, people with severe mental disabilties generally have custodians even after they turn 18.

	03-08-2003 12:40									#15
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Then reply to the post above, budy. Good luck

	03-08-2003 12:41									#16
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A severely handicapped person still has one thing a fetus doesn't, self-awareness.

	03-08-2003 12:41									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Zylka I see. And when another human being fails to display this as well [ie.) the severely handicapped/ mentally retarded] - we lance them because society and/or the mother have no need for them?

I hope this wasn't directed at me.

	03-08-2003 12:42									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Zylka Then reply to the post above, budy. Good luck

Thats easy, besides point one, the priciple that once these rights are gained they can't be removed can be invoked.

	03-08-2003 12:43									#19
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Che, why does a fetus not have self awareness? If it is instinctively sucking at it's thumb and making NEURO TRANSMISSION commanded movements - it for some reason doesn't use the same resource for awareness??? Or is it just "magic" that it kicks and winces - until a certain arbitrary time?

	03-08-2003 12:44									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Mordoch Thats easy, besides point one, the priciple that once these rights are gained they can't be removed can be invoked.

Oh, so the right is arbitrarily given the second a fetus leaves the womb, eh? That's a very concrete right you're denying of millions. Fair guy!

	03-08-2003 12:49									#21
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PETA: Eating meat is like the holocaust
Some anti-abortionists: Abortion is like the holocaust

so the only logical conclusion from this is that

Abortion is like eating meat. Mmmmm, tasty.

Zylka: This week's goldmine is just writing script excerpts for Star Wars ep. III. Nothing has been announced for next Phriday. However, there will likely be a mini-tournament this next week, this would be to qualify to make it onto the SA team for the upcoming SA vs. Worth1000 vs. Fark vs. some mystery team photoshop contest.

	03-08-2003 12:49									#22
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara self-awareness.

quote: -BRAIN WAVES HAVE BEEN RECORDED AT 40 DAYS

	03-08-2003 12:50									#23
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quote: Originally posted by ixnay Zylka: This week's goldmine is just writing script excerpts for Star Wars ep. III. Nothing has been announced for next Phriday. However, there will likely be a mini-tournament this next week, this would be to qualify to make it onto the SA team for the upcoming SA vs. Worth1000 vs. Fark vs. some mystery team photoshop contest.

Nice. Keep me updated, ok? My credit card is in the red zone

	03-08-2003 13:17									#24
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Zylka do you also find abhorent those abortions at the preimplantation stage (such as those induced by RU 486) where the embryo doesnt yet display any of the traits you list for the much later 11th week of gestation fetus?

	03-08-2003 13:24									#25
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Hello Geronimo,

Thank you for your question. In all honesty... when I was a younger lad at med school, I indeed supported the use of RU 486 for early abortion at most, as well as a wonderful intoxicant when crushed and mixed in with a shot of Jack Daniel's

Now, although the initial evidence supports lack of fetal awareness at the preliminary stages and I am tempted to continue in support, I must say that I can not be sure and have the answers of life in regards to post conception. None of us do, and when such a dilemma arises - you do NOT commit to potential murder in change. To think otherwise is unfounded arrogance, devoid of any real answer but convincing of self knowledge on completely arbitrary and evasive terms.

Hope that helps,
-Doc

	03-08-2003 13:24									#26
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i personnelly believe in abortion like stated in the law. and i do not believe that babies become human until they get self aware. and with self aware I do not mean producing brain waves...every animal does that. but i mean seeing you as a person with memories. If you think back to your childhood...you first and oldest memory is the moment you start living. (i am not saying you dont have the same right before that time) but Before that time...you do not actively remember and live.

	03-08-2003 13:28									#27
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DBS,

You consider yourself a humble man, I can tell. Well perhaps you would gain a little more insight by smoking 50mg of 5-MeO-DMT from a medicinal glass pipe.

I bid you good luck on your journey into "self awareness"

-Doc

	03-08-2003 13:33									#28
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i have injected my self with DMT ones....much more fun

i cant always take anti-abortionist seriously because most start about religous ideas and believe and i am an die hard athiest.
and besides that besides the child that is very importent the mother that wants the abortions needs to be taken in a count to... i am not judging or attackin someone here....just rambling my thoughs.

with this i must also say not myself or someone i know has dealt with such problems...

	03-08-2003 13:36									#29
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How convenient it is that they kill the baby while still in the womb, before evacuating. Anyone know why this is?

...because if they did it the other way around, the "undeveloped" child would STILL kick and move, struggle to breathe, and weakly protest as the instrument began to crush it's head! Do these sound like the actions of a being that is not yet "self aware"???

That's right, do the dirty work quickly and inside - so the fetus hasn't a chance to display the horror to other human beings as witness. I guess the doctors cope with their conscience a lot easier this way

Anyone care to debate this morbid treat? You can't - because it's reality!

	03-08-2003 13:38									#30
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quote: Originally posted by DeathByTheSword i have injected my self with DMT ones....much more fun

Nice! I am dying to get my hands on some... did you see any strange beings or entities during your experience?

quote: with this i must also say not myself or someone i know has dealt with such problems...

I have - someone I love. The first person outside of family I loved. Yet this did not taint my views of it, because if it did I would be pro abortion!