04-08-2003 19:55									#61
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quote: I think another President might have been more open to compromises in some of those points especially Environment, World Court and Missile Defence

No, those are the ones about which you wish an American president would be more open to compromise.

	04-08-2003 19:58									#62
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"It would never have been ratified."

What makes you so sure?

"There was broad support in the States for modest increases in defense spending"

Until the budget went down the sewer.

"Which is why it was strongly supported by Clinton?"

How much money?

Anyway, if you are right it just further confirms my view. It would be funny if Bush loses in 04, but for political reasons, I have to say four more years!

	04-08-2003 20:01									#63
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quote: Anyway, if you are right it just further confirms my view. It would be funny if Bush loses in 04, but for political reasons, I have to say four more years!

I can't tell whether you're a European nationalist or a European opportunist.

	04-08-2003 20:03									#64
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European pragmatist.

	04-08-2003 20:14									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker Sava - Do you have something to back that up? If you're going to badmouth him, at least make it more than an ad hominem.

Powell went along with the neo-cons because he was too weak to stick to his guns. He's little more than a "yes" man.

Speer: As much as you pretend, you still don't speak for the black community. You are so out of touch with reality it's funny.

Also, about Powell, where was the massive coalition building? Most people knock Bush for not being able to build a real coalition (sorry Azjerbaijan and Micronesia don't count), but Powell is the diplomat. I think he's weak and ineffective.

	04-08-2003 22:38									#66
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quote: Originally posted by DanS No, those are the ones about which you wish an American president would be more open to compromise.

Of course I had wished, and maybe you better had wished too


After Clinton, (cooperating in some important issues like Environmentalism with other countries Kyoto Treaty and the like), Bushs unilateralism was like a very cold shower

	04-08-2003 23:27									#67
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Clinton and Blair tried and failed to do it in '98, with the dissenters being the same culprits (except Germany was new to the list this time).

There may have been international dissenters, but the dissent at home was far more damaging to Clinton. Recall that we were in the midst of impeachment proceedings at the time and, of course, **** Armey and company thought that the "Operation Desert Fox" was grounds for further impeachment charges. (@ Armey, not Dan).

	04-08-2003 23:30									#68
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Flash from good ol' Drudge:

The Colin Powell story is a LIE. The conversation referenced by the WP never took place.

But, still, I don't expect him to stay on for the next term (assuming Bush is re-elected).

	05-08-2003 06:13									#69
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Yep, Powell denies the Washington Post story.

Still, nice Poly debate if nothing else.

BTW, it's now being reported that the Pope will step down if Bush is re-elected.

	05-08-2003 06:15									#70
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quote: What makes you so sure?

I would think the 98-0 vote against in the Senate makes everyone really sure that Kyoto never would have passed .

	05-08-2003 06:34									#71
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There are a couple of points that I have to disagree with in this thread:

1) A lack of coalition building was certainly not Powell's fault. A diplomat has only as much leeway as his president gives him. Powell had no room to bargain, and the intelligence alone was obviously not enough to convince other nations. What do you expect?

2) Rising anti-American sentiment has much more to do with attitude than policy. While many of Bush's policies may have continued under other presidents, Bush and his administration have made it abundantly clear that they don't give a flying **** what anyone else in the world thinks. This simply has not been true of past administrations. It never ceases to amaze me that people are surprised when this results in a negative attitude towards the U.S.

I'm not going to pin it all on Bush. That would be rediculous. People are going to disagree with you, no matter what policy you decide to follow. What I have disliked about this particular administration is the way they have chosen to handle the dissent.

	05-08-2003 06:35									#72
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quote: Of course I had wished, and maybe you better had wished too

I prefer for Europe to lead the way on this one. Show us how it's done.

Y'all were going to get the cold shower sooner or later. Clinton knew full well the Senate wasn't going to ratify it.

	05-08-2003 08:31									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Sikander I was against going to the U.N. myself,

Going to the UN was also about domestic stability. Bush would have had more trouble selling it to Congress and the American people if he did not at least make a fig lif attempt at getting permission from the UN. In the end, Bush got more than he wanted, as the whole excercse served to discredit the UN in many more American's eyes.

	05-08-2003 08:50									#74
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quote: Originally posted by DanS I prefer for Europe to lead the way on this one. Show us how it's done.

Well, you could begin with copying our technology of fuel efficient cars. Or you could imitate Germany's recylcing policy. Or you could take your electricity from nuclear power like France (nearly no French electricity comes from fossils, which results in much, MUCH less pollution). Or maybe you could adopt efficient mass transit systems in cities other than NY. Or, or, or...

The Euros pushed for Kyoto so much because they are mostly ready for it. You have the wealth and the knowledge to imitate us. You only lack the willingness to do so.

	05-08-2003 10:01									#75
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Bush would have had more trouble selling it to Congress and the American people if he did not at least make a fig lif attempt at getting permission from the UN. In the end, Bush got more than he wanted, as the whole excercse served to discredit the UN in many more American's eyes.

You forget that Bush had permission from Congress *long* before we went to the United Nations.

He had to follow Blair's lead, 'cuz few Britons (I hear) were zealous about going to Iraq without the UN's approval.

	05-08-2003 10:18									#76
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Sava, I was talking about your comments about Wolfowitz.

	05-08-2003 10:27									#77
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: What makes you so sure? I would think the 98-0 vote against in the Senate makes everyone really sure that Kyoto never would have passed .

We've been talking about that resolution before, still it was unlikely to pass.

Though I think that question was about the ICC.

	05-08-2003 17:08									#78
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quote: quote: Once the Taliban were gone, was there anyone in the world easier to build a coalition against than Saddam Hussein? Actually, I think it was pretty tough.

I guess we'll never know, as no serious attempt was made. However, of all the world's possible targets, there could not have been one much easier than Hussein. In this case I think the results of US diplomacy (i.e. utter failure) speak for themselves, as well as for those persons involved - and responsible.

quote: 1) A lack of coalition building was certainly not Powell's fault. A diplomat has only as much leeway as his president gives him. Powell had no room to bargain, and the intelligence alone was obviously not enough to convince other nations. What do you expect?

In that case resignation is what I expect.

That is the only honorable alternative if your personal views on the most fundamental aspect of your job are in direct conflict with those of your boss. Failure to do so means Powell must accept at least some of the responsibility.