16-08-2003 22:11									#31
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Plans for 130AD (Turn 135):


Unit Movement/Actions

1) G.B. to move S, unload cargo (Dycedarg and Howard) E, then S-S, heading for K'ville

2) Gaul to attack barb camp SW

3) Mercurio to move E, withdrawing to K'ville after being trained to vet

4) Merced to fortify at the Invoice site

5) Horace to move SW, looking for a barb camp
Military Advisor reports Phrygians "near Panama" - as the barb camp on Legos Minor is Cimmerians and we could see the whole of The Hammer at the beginning of the last turn, I figure the camp must be somewhere in the small FoW in the Northern Mountains - S/SW of the current Horace's position.

6) Silver to move E-NE-N-E, then to Tarzania for an upgrade
together with Misty and Attila will be the cargo for our new caravel being built in Zargonia

7) Alexander to skip turn
remaining our mobile police in the South

8) Cross to found Crossing; work irrigated grass, production to harbour

9) Mercx to move SE-SE-E to Logville, then fortify there

10) settler to Tiberium to move S
11) MercG to move S, escorting settler

12) Quantic to move W
13) Freddie to move W, escorting Quantic

14) G.G. to move E-NE-NE

15) Attila to move SE-SE-SE-SE-SE-S, heading for Zargonia
16) Misty to move SE-SE-SE-SE-SE-S, heading for Zargonia

17) Arthur to upgrade to knight for 80g


Worker Movement/Actions

18) Jason Jr. to mine, then road

19) Michael to move NW, then mine & road

20) Jack to clear jungle

21) Jinxo to move N-NW, then irrigate, road then N, then irrigate and road again

22) Charlie to road

23) Philippe to road

24) Logger to move NE

25) Martin or George to move NE-NE-NE, then E-N, then clear jungle

25a) Gus to road


City Management

25b) reassign two Jackson labourers (one from hill and one from bonus grass) to coastal tiles
more commerce, aqueduct stiil in 1 turn

25c) reassign Red Bricks labourer from forest to the roaded grass W-SW of the city
see the plan few posts above - the chop will add the shields, we can save food for a few turns

26) Tarzania to work all roaded tiles and the fish

27) if possible (lux from our allies), assign Farmerville specialist to the fully improved floodplains NW of the city

Last edited by vondrack on 21-08-2003 at 12:32

	17-08-2003 05:19									#32
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No objections to orders and nothing to add.

	18-08-2003 02:04									#33
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FYI:

For last turn (130 AD), assuming that GoW is in 2nd place due to their GA:

Mfg Goods: GoW 128, Lego 120
GNP: Lego 283, GoW 280
Productivity: GoW unknown but higher than our 357 - might have a better idea when our FP is done

All things considered - despite GoW's GA (and ND's GA) we aren't doing half bad.

However, with now both GoW and ND having quite a few more cities than us (and with plenty of growth potential in those newly conquered cities), we are in danger of falling behind and becoming the 4th world power instead of the 2nd.

For instance in labour squares used (not population): GS 133, Lego 93, GoW 88, ND 73 - and with many of our cities reaching temporary maximums due to aqua caps and the newly conquered RP cities we will be pressed to keep up with GoW and ND. Also notable is the fairly large gap between GS and us - another reminder of how much stronger GS is than us.

	18-08-2003 08:23									#34
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Very good points Sharpe. If GS gets a good chunck of Bob, they may dominate the game. We must check their growth.

	18-08-2003 11:27									#35
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Good analysis, Steve. Although I do not really think we are in danger of falling to #3 or #4, we must certainly keep expanding and growing our cities, that's for sure.

Few comments:

1) let's wait 2 more turns for the FP completion. We'll be at least back to #2 in Mfg. Goods, I believe.

2) GNP may be quite misleading, since it does not reflect corruption, which will, again with the completion of our FP, be an important factor in our favour. It also says little about the research potential and about how much gold can be generated (which is what actually matters, GNP alone is not all that important).

3) keep in mind we have just began another (final) REX phase. Ahhmyfoot, Crossing, Tiberium, Quanto - and more to come soon, using settlers from Farmerville & Logville. Our potential is also huge - certainly matching those of GoW & ND and surpassing that of GS unless they successfully expand over to Bob (which we are doing all we can to prevent from happening). ATM, we have 14 cities. That means we still have ELEVEN more PERMANENT ones planned (not counting any temporary camp sites we may want to establish after the permanent ones are founded and until they - can - grow to pop 12+).

4) do not discount the effect of the GA for GoW & ND. That's +1spt/+1gpt for most worked squares (and just have a look at your own number how many worked squares they have... ). IIRC, they were like 30-40% below our level prior to their GA. That is unlikely to change dramatically, as most of their GA extra output is surely be used to produce more military units.

5) new luxuries will allow our riverside cities to grow substantially (without getting into unhappiness troubles) - and it's been only the last turn we became able to trade with more than just GS.

6) our Pyramids help us to use every kind of a growth potential much faster than our rivals. Our cities grow basically twice as fast as theirs. By the time new GoW & ND cities in the ex-RP territory get to pop 3, our newly founded cities in the South will be at pop 6.

7) all three teams we shall keep our eye on (GS, GoW, and ND) are committing substantial resources to war. This is true for us as well, but to a somewhat lesser extent. And at least for the moment, none of our military shields get wasted (by our units getting killed). That's another comparative advantage.

8) we still have our GA ahead of us...

All in all... this post is, quite unusually , not meant to disagree with you (perhaps with the exception of the "in danger of falling behind..." statement)... just point out that besides things that are "in favour" of GS, GoW, and ND, there are also several strong points in our favour.

We WOULD be in danger of falling behind if we played carelessly, relying on the strong position we have built over the first part of the game. But I believe that we are still playing a very strong builder game, squeezing every single shield out of our land. Let's keep doing that, let's not start dismissing few-shield savings as "no longer significant" and we shall be fine.

And... I kinda agree that we should, even during the upcoming military buildup phase, allow our cities to grow. Perhaps having at least one city building an aqueduct at all times, to keep slowly removing the pop 6 cap? Currently one aqueduct is soon to be finished in Jackson, the next one should be started in Karina, right? And after Karina builds it? Which city should go next? Kloreepville? Sharpehaven? Zargonia? Tarzania?

	18-08-2003 14:59									#36
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Having one city building an aqueduct at all times is a very good idea - I was thinking the same thing.

As for the order in which what cities would follow Jackson and Karina in getting their aqueducts done, I would say Kloreepville first (harbor will be complete for extra food, 1 jungle is being uncovered and one improved hill is unused).

Sharpehaven, Tarzania and Zargonia should have irrigation paths in progress or completed to better benefit from aqueducts. All of them also have vast shield potentials, especially Zargonia which should reach pre-railroad shields of about 25 at size 12. Of these Tarzania would have the easiest irrigation path, then Zargonia and Sharpehaven - so that would be the order in which I would suggest doing them.

We would need to switch off ships from Zargonia to somewhere else so we should consider building harbors at Crossing and Logville - Logville will have more shields admittedly but is quite a bit further south unfortunately.

	18-08-2003 15:48									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Sharpe Having one city building an aqueduct at all times is a very good idea - I was thinking the same thing.

Can you see that, everybody!? Me and Steve happen to agree about something. Wow!

quote: Originally posted by Sharpe As for the order in which what cities would follow Jackson and Karina in getting their aqueducts done, I would say Kloreepville first (harbor will be complete for extra food, 1 jungle is being uncovered and one improved hill is unused).

And yet another match. Yes, I would go for Kloreepville first, too (after completing the current harbour build and one caravel to get our navy to four 3-slot vessels).

quote: Originally posted by Sharpe Sharpehaven, Tarzania and Zargonia should have irrigation paths in progress or completed to better benefit from aqueducts. All of them also have vast shield potentials, especially Zargonia which should reach pre-railroad shields of about 25 at size 12. Of these Tarzania would have the easiest irrigation path, then Zargonia and Sharpehaven - so that would be the order in which I would suggest doing them.

And another match. I agree - getting water to TarZar area will be easier to do then S'haven area (plus, two cities will benefit instead of just one. So, what about ordering Toby to start irrigating E of F'ville (after he finishes his current job)?

quote: Originally posted by Sharpe We would need to switch off ships from Zargonia to somewhere else so we should consider building harbors at Crossing and Logville - Logville will have more shields admittedly but is quite a bit further south unfortunately.

This will not be a big problem. When the time comes for an aqueduct in Zargonia, our transport navy should be numerous enough (at least five 3-slot caravels) to allow Zargonia a short break. Plus - Crossing will be building a harbour as its first build anyway.

	19-08-2003 04:14									#38
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quote: Can you see that, everybody!? Me and Steve happen to agree about something. Wow!

Don't make a habit out of it, don't want anybody getting the idea that we actually agree on things

In all seriousness, we don't disagree as much as you might think - and that is my fault as I am generally silent when I agree with you on something... (and might explain part of my much lower post count - if I did more "I agree" posting I might be beyond King level by now... ) - though I do agree that we have had our fair amount of ..... disputes

quote: And another match. I agree - getting water to TarZar area will be easier to do then S'haven area (plus, two cities will benefit instead of just one. So, what about ordering Toby to start irrigating E of F'ville (after he finishes his current job)?

re Toby irrigating- sounds like an excellent idea

Though I was thinking SE-SE-E of his current location to start (not sure if you literally saying E of his current location or not) then E later on to clear the forest inside Tarzania - though I can see the attraction of irrigating E of his current location as that would provide a quicker irrigation for both RedBricks and Farmerville.

	19-08-2003 10:22									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Sharpe re Toby irrigating- sounds like an excellent idea Though I was thinking SE-SE-E of his current location to start (not sure if you literally saying E of his current location or not) then E later on to clear the forest inside Tarzania - though I can see the attraction of irrigating E of his current location as that would provide a quicker irrigation for both RedBricks and Farmerville.

I meant E of Tarzania (city), which is SE-SE-E of his current location. Then the Tarzania forest, yes. Yet another agreement...

	19-08-2003 10:26									#40
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quote: I meant E of Tarzania (city), which is SE-SE-E of his current location. Then the Tarzania forest, yes. Yet another agreement...

Ok guys... now I'm starting to wonder if one of you is ill or something

	21-08-2003 09:45									#41
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I've looked over the latest turn, and I see no changes that need to be made. ND sent us 2 luxes, already accepted, and GoW offered us wines, unaccepted. Take a look over the save, and post if you have any changes before I play the turn

	21-08-2003 12:38									#42
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quote: Originally posted by ZargonX I've looked over the latest turn, and I see no changes that need to be made. ND sent us 2 luxes, already accepted, and GoW offered us wines, unaccepted. Take a look over the save, and post if you have any changes before I play the turn

I did find few changes, some of them pretty important (the Red Brick labour reassignment) - see them in red in the turn plan post. Other than those, it's ok, IMHO.

	21-08-2003 20:14									#43
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Plans for 150AD (Turn 136):


Unit Movement/Actions

1) Horace to sentry

2) Dycedarg to move SE-SE-SE, then to Jackson-D.F. white camp

3) Howard to upgrade to medieval infantry for 20g

4) Arthur to fortify in Panama

5) G.B. to move S-SE to Kloreepville

6) Mercurio to move E to Kloreepville, then fortify

7) new merc from Sharpehaven to be named 'Numero Uno', move E-N, and fortify

8) new settler from Farmerville to move W-W-W towards the Invoice site

9) G.G. to move E-NE-NE

10) Silver to move N-NE-N-N-N-E, then N-N-N to Tarzania for an upgrade
together with Misty and Attila will be the cargo for our new caravel being built in Zargonia

11) Freddie to move NW, escorting Quantic
12) Quantic to move NW

13) Alexander to move W, as MilAdv reports barbs nr Ahhmyfoot

14) MercG to fortify

15) settler to found Tiberium, work cattle, production to worker

16) Mercx to fortify in Logville

17) Attila to move S-S-S-S-S-SE, heading for Zargonia
18) Misty to move S-S-S-S-S-SE, heading for Zargonia

19) Gaul to move S

20) Angus to move SE-SE-SE, then to TarZar white camp let's postpone this... I do not feel strongly about it and I saw Steve opposing the plan, while nobody vocally supporting it...


Worker Movement/Actions

21) Ken to road

22) Stanley to mine

23) Michael to mine road, then road mine

24) Jinxo to irrigate, then road, then N, then irrigate and road again

25) Fritz to move E, then chop forest

26) Martin to move E-N, then clear jungle

27) George to move NE-NE-NE, then E-N, then clear jungle

28) Toby to move SE-SE-E, then irrigate & road

29) Bill to road
30) Frank Jr. to road

31) Logger to road, then mine

32) Rover to road

33) Farmer to road

34) Mark to road


City Management

35) reassign two Jackson labourers from coasts back to mined hill & mined bonus grass; start knight

36) Farmerville to work wheat, both floodplains and both bonus grasses; start another settler (to have +10fpt and grow back to pop 6 in 1t)

37) reassign Red Bricks lebourer from the fully improved grassland W-SW to the fully improved riverbank grassland S-SE

[b]38) Forkmouth to work both mined hills, all three mined bonus grasses, and floodplains (mean no change)

39) reassign Karina labourer from the mined hill SE-SE to the irrigated plains SE of the city; start aqueduct;

40) Zargonia to work cattle, three two mined hills, mined grass, and roaded grass and three coasts

41) Dye Fields to start an aqueduct

42) Logville to work all at least partially improved tiles wheat, irrigated grass, roaded plains, mined hill, roaded riverbank grass, and unimproved bonus grass

43) Sharpehaven to start another merc

44) Tarzania to work fish, mined hills NE & SE, and all three mined bonus grasses;,start a merc

45) reassign Ahhmyfoot labourer from the irrigated plains to the mined boinus grass


46) start researching Gunpowder at 100%


I suggest we hold the next save a bit, because the FP completion may dramatically change our corruption and waste levels - better to thoroughly review our economy and look for possible improvements and/or optimizations.

Last edited by vondrack on 26-08-2003 at 17:45

	21-08-2003 21:12									#44
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quote: I suggest we hold the next save a bit, because the FP completion may dramatically change our corruption and waste levels - better to thoroughly review our economy and look for possible improvements and/or optimizations.

Agreed. Next turn is going to be very important for setting up our future build plans, so no need to hurry it along.

	22-08-2003 04:47									#45
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Agreed re holding it - to assess our post-FP situation

	22-08-2003 07:16									#46
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Edited your post Vondrack thought that was easier than posting somewhere else as you missed Rover's roading and the Jackson new build (I am assuming that it is a Knight we want to build there).

18) Angus to move SE-SE-SE, then to TarZar white camp
I disagree - TarZar has enough for now - the north is badly understrength though - I think we should move him to cover the worker in case barbs reappear on the Hammer peninsula.

Though once the Knight is complete and G.B. is upgraded I wonder if we should send G.B. plus a unit north to that big sea area NE of Legos Minor to see if there is any landmass there.

	22-08-2003 12:03									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Sharpe Edited your post Vondrack thought that was easier than posting somewhere else as you missed Rover's roading and the Jackson new build (I am assuming that it is a Knight we want to build there).

Yes, knights in Jackson from now on. Thanks for the additions.

quote: Originally posted by Sharpe 18) Angus to move SE-SE-SE, then to TarZar white camp I disagree - TarZar has enough for now - the north is badly understrength though - I think we should move him to cover the worker in case barbs reappear on the Hammer peninsula.

Not that it would matter all that much, as the threat of an invasion is minimal ATM - but the reason for keeping a bit stronger 'mobile' force in the TarZar area (as compared to the Jackson-D.F. area... but the difference is not that big - three MIs to two MIs) is that there is no nearby knight production center. In the North, we have Panama spitting out a knight every 5 turns and Jackson doing the same. That means a knight every 2.5 turns - so it is likely that any counter-attack would be able to use 1-2 knights from the nearby production centers... which is not true for our South, at least not until Forkmouth and/or Karina start building knights, too.

quote: Originally posted by Sharpe Though once the Knight is complete and G.B. is upgraded I wonder if we should send G.B. plus a unit north to that big sea area NE of Legos Minor to see if there is any landmass there.

Sorry, that's out of question for the moment - we need all our vessels for LEF transport duties. The very first boat I could imagine sending to that spot would be the first, but much more likely the second caravel out of K'ville - and only after Invoice will already exist, so that we do not have to circumnavigate Legos Minor.

G.B. should upgrade ASAP, then pick Arthur, Horace, and the first knight out of Panama and sail over to Bob (LEF group #2).

	22-08-2003 15:30									#48
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quote: Not that it would matter all that much, as the threat of an invasion is minimal ATM - but the reason for keeping a bit stronger 'mobile' force in the TarZar area (as compared to the Jackson-D.F. area... but the difference is not that big - three MIs to two MIs) is that there is no nearby knight production center.[

A more relevant reason for a stronger 'mobile' force in the north is that 2 of our major cities - Legopolis and RedBricks are undefended. If a hypothetical invasion cracked our defense wall in the north, we would be in major danger of losing nearly our entire core - so we need a stronger wall of units in the north - especially with 2 task forces of knights being sent over to Bob (see below I think we need to talk about that 3rd group)

quote: Sorry, that's out of question for the moment - we need all our vessels for LEF transport duties. The very first boat I could imagine sending to that spot would be the first, but much more likely the second caravel out of K'ville - and only after Invoice will already exist, so that we do not have to circumnavigate Legos Minor. G.B. should upgrade ASAP, then pick Arthur, Horace, and the first knight out of Panama and sail over to Bob (LEF group #2).

Hmm, that would be 3 LEF groups of 3 knights each? With practically nothing left for defense? I don't think so - should have a team discussion about that - I think sending a 3rd group is premature right now.

	22-08-2003 19:30									#49
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Well, correct me if I am wrong, but I believe it was decided by the team that our presence on Bob should be at least 12-15 knights - and that deploying weaker forces does not really make sense, as 3-6 knights would make no difference anyway. That's thus the plan I am following.

I do not see ANY threat of an invasion on Legos Major. Where should it come from? RP? GoW? ND? GS? All of these have the probability very close to zero - GoW and ND are our allies, RP is down to their last two cities, and GS has other affairs to attend to - sailing a strong enough invasion force halfway around the world makes no sense at all, especially when you need the forces elsewhere.

Plus: within about 6-7 turns, we shall have gunpowder, being able to quickly upgrade at least the most exposed garrisons. An invader would need quite a lot of knights to bring down fortified muskets (effective defense of, say, 6+). Plus, our cities keep producing more military units all the time.

We are NOT speaking about THIS turn - we're speaking about 10 turns into the future. By that time, we should have about 3-4 more knights above what we have ATM and several more mercs/muskets and some catapults.

And just to put this discussion into perspective - as far as THIS turn is concerned, we're talking about whether to send Angus to TarZar or Jackson-D.F. white camp...

I would really like to hear others on the LEF strength issue - I believe that we have already agreed on that we want to have at least 12 knights on Bob ASAP, no?

	22-08-2003 20:18									#50
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I would say we need at least a force of 10+ to make any effective difference on Bob. While I do like the idea of further exploration, I think we should probably put it on hold temporarily. With GS' post in the main forum indicating they are going into this war in earnest, finally, we definately need to step up our efforts. I'd like to start shipping troops over to cover GoW's back within 5 turns or so.

As for an invasion of our lands, I'm not too worried for 2 reasons: GS can't reach us, and if GoW or ND decided to backstab us, we'll have troops in their lands already. They'd have to eliminate those first, which would give us plenty of warning of what's coming. Besides, we're mostly sending offensive forces to Bob, leaving our defensive forces intact. And, honestly, we should be replacing every troop we send over with a fresh supply to fill in behind them.

	23-08-2003 07:41									#51
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But aside from GS's lighthouse ability, we are currently the only ones with the capability to safely travel in seas until we trade Astronomy to the other civs.

If another land mass does exist NE of Legos Minor and west of Mystery Isle (which seems definitely possible given the odd sea patterns), it is possible that additional hut(s) might exist there. Plus it would give our ally Vox another possible area to settle (or us if we so chose).

I realize that is a lot of "ifs" but it might be worth it to check it out. With GoW's suggestion on delaying giving them Astronomy and the broken trade treaty, we do have some extra time.

Last edited by Sharpe on 23-08-2003 at 07:53

	23-08-2003 08:27									#52
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quote: And just to put this discussion into perspective - as far as THIS turn is concerned, we're talking about whether to send Angus to TarZar or Jackson-D.F. white camp...

Actually I mentioned another alternative - one that I regard as the best use of Angus - to use him to cover the worker from any possible barb attack from the Hammer peninsula (admittedly it does look as though that barb camp near Panama turned out to be the one on Legos Minor/Voxtovia that we just destroyed this turn).

	23-08-2003 11:53									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Sharpe If another land mass does exist NE of Legos Minor and west of Mystery Isle (which seems definitely possible given the odd sea patterns), it is possible that additional hut(s) might exist there. Plus it would give our ally Vox another possible area to settle (or us if we so chose). I realize that is a lot of "ifs" but it might be worth it to check it out. With GoW's suggestion on delaying giving them Astronomy and the broken trade treaty, we do have some extra time.

Just a note: huts are next to useless now, as they, IIRC, never give post-ancient techs...

	25-08-2003 10:10									#54
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It has been agreed that the we must have 12 - 15 knights before we attack. This is an old discussion and the majority ruled infavor of 12 - 15 knights.

I see minimal benefits in further exploration. Let's keep focused on the tasks at hand...which are considerable.

Leo

	25-08-2003 12:51									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Sharpe Actually I mentioned another alternative - one that I regard as the best use of Angus - to use him to cover the worker from any possible barb attack from the Hammer peninsula (admittedly it does look as though that barb camp near Panama turned out to be the one on Legos Minor/Voxtovia that we just destroyed this turn).

BTW - the camp reported by MilAdv as "near Panama" really was the one Gaul sacked last turn in the Voxtavian Desert. After we got rid of it, MilAdv started speaking about another camp, this time near Ahhmyfoot.

	25-08-2003 14:54									#56
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quote: Just a note: huts are next to useless now, as they, IIRC, never give post-ancient techs...

For techs they are useless yes, that situation has existed since Civ2, but they still can provide other benefits like gold, a nomad settler, a city or a map - even barbs wouldn't be much of a problem if a strong enough unit was sent - good promotion possibilities

quote: BTW - the camp reported by MilAdv as "near Panama" really was the one Gaul sacked last turn in the Voxtavian Desert. After we got rid of it, MilAdv started speaking about another camp, this time near Ahhmyfoot.

That's what I said...

As for exploration of that area NE of Legos Minor - Kloreep has a nice idea regarding that in the Vox thread.

	25-08-2003 15:21									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Sharpe For techs they are useless yes, that situation has existed since Civ2, but they still can provide other benefits like gold, a nomad settler, a city or a map - even barbs wouldn't be much of a problem if a strong enough unit was sent - good promotion possibilities

That's what I said... useless. Or... ok, not completely useless... but certainly not worth the efforts.

quote: Originally posted by Sharpe As for exploration of that area NE of Legos Minor - Kloreep has a nice idea regarding that in the Vox thread.

Yeah, I think it's not a bad idea. Just give them a hint that they might try exploring in that direction and let us know if they find anything of interest... though, I'm quite sure they will find out themselves. Their galleys have nothing better to do now than to navigate around Legos Minor, checking every reachable coastal corner...

	26-08-2003 02:53									#58
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Well, since there's support for getting Vox to do it, I suggest we add:
-Send Education to Vox as accepted

	26-08-2003 03:54									#59
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For anyone who wants to look at the save: I've uploaded it here until it's put up permanently on redstar's FTP.

An addition after looking at the save:
-Red Bricks citizen W-SW of the city to be moved to SE-S (one more beaker)

	26-08-2003 04:14									#60
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Ken slipped through the cracks. I think he should to road.

Also, I think Michael should road, not mine. It'll be more efficient, and if the new Jackson worker is kept on the hill, the Knight could be completed in 5 turns regardless of the mine being 1 turn later. (Michael can join in in 3 turns after doing the road, still cutting the mine completion time down by 1 turn)