07-11-2003 11:00									#151
	Put an end to popups!

I agree to send the SP.

And Sharpe, we are doing this not for them, we are doing it for us. GS is the biggest threat until now and at least for the near future, so we are fighting against them. An alliance is not a trade: it doesn't have to be fair. An alliance means that everybody does everything he can to achieve the common objective. In this case: pushing GS back to Stormia. Can you say that ND and GoW haven't done everything they could to achieve this? They've spent all of their GA on building military and fighting GS, they've lost tons of troops and the shields invested in them while we sent one tech and one luxury and some reserve troops and yet you're saying that the alliance is loopsided? Think again.

	07-11-2003 11:14									#152
	Tired of ads?

While sending them saltpeter did seem a little, well, wrong at first, much for the reasons Tibi just mentioned I decided I was ok with it. The longer we can keep GS and GoW and ND smashing into each other, the better for us. SP can only be used defensively by them for now, and they'll have their own supply hooked up in the next 5 turns or so, I'd imagine, so we're not giving them anything they wouldn't have in the immediate future.

Though, I will definately agree that our homeland defenses are slacking, and we need to start bulking them up again! :doitnow:

	07-11-2003 12:13									#153
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Tiberius we are doing this not for them, we are doing it for us. GS is the biggest threat until now and at least for the near future, so we are fighting against them. An alliance is not a trade: it doesn't have to be fair. An alliance means that everybody does everything he can to achieve the common objective. In this case: pushing GS back to Stormia. Can you say that ND and GoW haven't done everything they could to achieve this? They've spent all of their GA on building military and fighting GS, they've lost tons of troops and the shields invested in them while we sent one tech and one luxury and some reserve troops and yet you're saying that the alliance is loopsided? Think again.

This is a pretty good summary, I think.

Yes, it may look like we are giving tons of 'tangible' stuff while GoW & ND happily wage 'their' war. But as Tibi correctly points out, this alliance is not about "fair" trades.

We have our goal since day 1 of the war: having Bob divided evenly between GoW and ND, GS driven off Bob and contained on Stormia (RP gone or in exile). And all that preferrably later than sooner, so that we have more time to grow in our splendid isolation, while others keep spilling their blood on Bob... That's what we should keep in mind all the time.

So far, we haven't contributed anything which would really "hurt" us - the fast gunpowder research did not really cost us more than ~200 gold maximum. Dyes do not costs us anything, just like iron we provide to GoW. Our troops are not yet dying on the battlefield (because of our troops not being in position yet, even the primary defenses of Y'knife will be handled by GoW troops, despite the previous arrangement that that area would be our responsibility). Saltpeter we do not need for the next 4 turns - our gold reserves are not big enough to support too many 60g upgrades beyond the first three done this turn, and we have no more cities ready to produce muskets in the next four turns, but S'haven and Tarzania.

So, while it looks like we are doing a lot for GoW and ND, we are actually doing mostly things that do not cost us anything important. Hell, we even keep building infrastructure in many of our cities. We happily research a dead-end, wonder-only tech on a surplus budget! Our economy is far from being fully mobilized for the war effort, let's be honest with ourselves...

On the other hand... as Tibi says. GoW and ND are doing their best to get rid of RP we dislike for reasons well known & GS that has been our only real competitor in this game so far (actually pushing them into a corner where GS will need our help & friendship). That's something that would not really be achievable if we were to do it ourselves. True, GoW & ND have their own reasons, but as a "side effect", they are helping us to strenghten our position in the game tremendously.

There is one more reason that is hard to quantify, but worth mentioning... from what I know about the GoW & ND guys, they are what I would call "honourable". They keep their promises and play the game with a certain degree of noblesse - mostly free of the machiavellian tricks and reasoning of RP and/or GS (see how GoW does not even consider GS' proposal to backstab ND, despite GS offering RP gone from Bob and basically whatever price GoW asks for). I do not consider it possible they turn against us all of a sudden and abuse our homeland vulnerability to gain on us. That would simply not be acceptable for them. The more we do for them now (or the more we seem to have done for them), the less likely they will be to attack us even if they happen to be in a position to later in the game (though I do not think they will ever be in that position).

One thing I will agree with is that our homeland defenses are alarmingly low. Yes, that's the risk we are taking. But I believe that it is a risk well calculated and very likely to pay off in the mid- and long-term.

	07-11-2003 12:28									#154
	Suffering from ads?

Well, upgrading our home defences is definitely a priority. Let's keep this in mind while happily building our infrastructure.

	09-11-2003 15:49									#155
	Got spare money?

Plans for 330AD (Turn 149):


Unit Movement/Actions


1) Trasher to move NE-E-S, then fortify in the TarZar white camp

2) Marky Merc (in Jackson) to move NE-NE, embarking L.V., becoming part of LEF5
3) Merciless (in Jackson) to move NE-NE, embarking L.V., becoming part of LEF5
4) Galahad to move NE-NE-NE-NE, embarking L.V., completing LEF5

5) L.V. with LEF5 aboard to move NE-N-N
6) G.B. to move S-SW and fortify, ready for ferry duties if needed
7) J.K. with LEF4 aboard to move NE-NE-NE
8) N.C. to fortify, ready for ferry duties if needed
9) I.N. to move NW-W and fortify (to see 3 tiles next turn), scouting
10) G.G. to move S-SW-W, scouting

11) LEF2 (Misty, Silver, Attila) to move E-NE-E-E
12) LEF3 (Arthur, Horace, Lancelot) to move E-E-E-E
road SE-SE of Macao will be blocked by Tatung Guard (GoW's elite pike en route to Yellowknife), so we will have to leave the road, joining LEF1 on the hill S of Skulgaria only on the next turn

12a) make sure we somehow declare war to GoW
GoW needs to break our iron trade, so that they can build a coupla more horses to be upgraded to riders. There should be two options available - snatching a worker Aggie will position somewhere along the route of LEF2+3, or pillaging the roaded grass SE-SE of Skulgaria (with an LEF1 unit). My recommendation is to snatch the worker if it does not slow LEF2/3. Should it slow any of them down, let's use LEF1 and pillage the road. GoW has officially agreed to both of these two options.

12b) upgrade some of our mercs to muskets??
the fake war with GoW will return saltpeter back to us, too. We will thus be able to upgrade some more mercs to muskets. Do we do that? I would consider upgrading the Karina and Panama garrisons (120g total, leaving ~100g in our gold reserves), starting the upgrade shuffling on the next turn.

13) Meriadoc (Jack-D.F. white camp) to move N-N and fortify in Jackson
14) Mercus Aurelius (D.F.-Tar white camp) to move N-N and fortify in D.F.
15) Merril to move N-NW-N, then fortify in D.F.-Tar white camp
16) Max Payne (TarZar W.C.) to move N-N-N
17) Merc Twain to move S towards the Tipperary site

18) Ming to move S, escorting Frank Jr.

19) Settler 'Horsefish' to found Horsefish; work
bonus grass S, start building temple (??)
20) MercG to fortify in Horsefish

21) settler 'Castle' to move N-N-N, towards the Castlea site
22) new settler finished in Logville to be named 'Tipper' and moved NW-W towards the Tipperary site (the last Southern city site)


Worker Movement/Actions

23) Michael to road, then irrigate
part of the GA preparations + extending the irrigation system towards the Castlea site

24) Jack to mine
25) Charlie to move SW and mine
mine will be done next turn, bringing the Jackson shield output back to 14spt (at +4fpt), which is what we need to finish the knight there in time with max growth rate

26) Peter to move W and irrigate
27) Patrick to move W and irrigate
bringing fresh water to S'haven area

28) Fritz to mine

29) George to mine

30) Toby to irrigate

31) Frank Jr. to move S; will connect the horse to Q.M.

32) Farmer to move W, then road & mine
33) Mark to move W, then road & mine

34) Adam to move E-E, then road & mine, helping Bill

35) Bill to road, then mine the horse hill

36) new worker finished in Dye Fields to be named 'Pink' and moved NW-W, then clear jungle
see the GA thread for details on Dye Fields GA preparations


City Management

37) reassign Red Bricks labourer from the roaded/mined grassland W-SW to the roaded/irrigated grassland SW
to grow in 1 turn, while finishing the cat

38) Dye Fields to work all 5 grasslands; start another worker

39) Logville to work wheat, all 4 irrigated grasses, and riverbank hill; start building marketplace
back to higher pop as fast as possible; I believe a marketplace is the best improvement we can build here, because of the happiness and income boost

40) reassign Sharpehaven labourer from the fully improved hill S-SE to the roaded/irrigated grassland SE-SE
musket still in 3 turns, faster growth

41) Oasis to work both irrigated tiles

42) reassign Kloreepville WF so that we nail the aqueduct build in 1 turn with maximum food surplus
depends on if we uncover a bonus grass or not - if we do, reassign a labourer from the irrigated grass to the new bonus grass. If not reassign to the fully improved hill instead.

43) Tiberium to work all land tiles


44) start researching Banking at 50%

Last edited by vondrack on 12-11-2003 at 12:49

	12-11-2003 12:53									#156
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Note the two additions to the turn plan - declaring war to GoW is very important. The merc-to-musket upgrades are optional.

	12-11-2003 13:05									#157
	Increase Your PM Length

Let's upgrade some mercs, unless we need the money elsewhere. We have the money and we have the sp. Let's do it.

	12-11-2003 13:30									#158
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Tibi mentions an important issue... do we plan to goldrush any city improvements? I do not think the answer is trivial - we should look carefully at the map, at all our cities and consider their builds for the next ~20 turns.

Possible candidates would include cities that will build wonders (Panama? Jackson? Legopolis?), so that they can start prebuilding them sooner or bring more benefit while building them. Low-shield cities needing a temple or library to grab fine tiles in their outer ring might also be worth considering. And finally, Farmerville & Logville have awesome pop potentials, but only mediocre shield outputs, which means that anything we build there the hard way will take some time.

	12-11-2003 14:44									#159
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I agree with the proposal to start upgrading some of the mercs to muskets.... however you may be right about perhaps rushing an improvement here or there to get a wonder build under way first.

I don't think we are under any great risk in the near future and while unit upgrades need to be started soon, the money might be better spent as you say on improvements....

	12-11-2003 19:42									#160
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

If we can afford it, we should consider upgrading a few in our "front line" cities; i.e. the East Coast. Also, an analysis of which cities are worthy of rushing improvements would also be wise, as getting them out of the way while the war is still raging may be a good thing, in case we have to do any sudden re-planning later.

	14-11-2003 13:21									#161
	Full PM-box? Change here!

OK, there seems to be nothing unexpected. Two or three workers ready to do something, but it's pretty obvious what to do.

I must have forgotten to move N.C. last turn, so I will do it this one (fortunately, N.C. is only meant to get into a position to be ready for ferry duties, if needed).

The new Kloreepville/Invoice tile is a regular grass, so we will have to switch back to the no growth setup for one more turn to nail aqueduct in 1 turn.

I will upgrade the mercs in Panama and Jackson.

	14-11-2003 13:35									#162
	Increase Your PM Length

Radek, I don't know exactly the situation/position of LEF1, but do they have enough movement points to get out of the hiding, take a look at the GS troops, and then go back to the gathering point? A screeny with the battlefield would be a nice eyecandy

	14-11-2003 15:09									#163
	Increase Your PM Length

Unfortunately not, mostly because of the lack of roads in the area.

	14-11-2003 16:13									#164
	Remove this text

There will be a small problem with the captured worker. GoW will receive our peace proposal before playing their turn (I mean, before moving units and such) and if they accept it, they won't be able to capture the worker back. So maybe they should dismiss the peace proposal, capture the worker and then send us an accepted peace+wine + RoP proposal.

	14-11-2003 16:22									#165
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Radek, have you chacked if we can offer Music Theory to all of the teams? Just in case.

	14-11-2003 16:28									#166
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Tiberius There will be a small problem with the captured worker. GoW will receive our peace proposal before playing their turn (I mean, before moving units and such) and if they accept it, they won't be able to capture the worker back. So maybe they should dismiss the peace proposal, capture the worker and then send us an accepted peace+wine + RoP proposal.

Actually, I was thinking about this for a while and I decided that we will keep the captured worker.

But seriously. The worker is a captured ND one. He will work as fast with us as with GoW, so there is no need to "return" him immediately. If we keep him (he's with LEF2 ATM), we just use him to do whatever terrain improvements GoW/ND need - and when it is time for another fake war, they just take him back.

The advantage of this approach is that we get peace, and consequently wines, one turn earlier (you cannot send lux+peace, you first need to have peace... at least I was unable to send them peace+dyes).

I haven't specifically checked M.T. Will do once I get to doing the turn plan for T150.

	14-11-2003 20:16									#167
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I have a feeling we'll be the only ones with M.T. right now. I can't see the 4 teams at war really rushing to squeeze in that tech That said, 4 turns to Bach! Whooo! arty:

	15-11-2003 05:11									#168
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

OK, a quick review of our situation tech-wise:

GoW lack Monarchy, Astronomy, and Music Theory
ND lack Monarchy, Astronomy, and Music Theory

RP lack Invention, Gunpowder, Astronomy, and Music Theory (any idea where they got Education from? own research?!?!)

Vox lack Monarchy, Chivalry, Invention, Gunpowder, Astronomy, and Music Theory

GS lack Monarchy, Invention, Gunpowder, Astronomy, and Music Theory

Last edited by vondrack on 15-11-2003 at 05:41

	15-11-2003 05:49									#169
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

On the issue of RP & Education... we sent them Theology in 210 BC (turn 118). RP acquired Education in 290 AD (turn 145), 27 turns later. Education costs 1056 (nominal), that would be 39 bpt. Even with the discount based upon the tech being known by 4 out of 6 teams (~33%), the cost should not fall under 25bpt. That's almost one pike upgrade every turn!

I just cannot believe they were researching Edu on their own at 25bpt during the war.

But if they did not research it themselves, they must have gotten it from GS (Vox do not have Edu, GoW and ND were in the state of war with RP).

But... GS promised to not trade Edu to anyone without our consent (check the trade agreement).

	15-11-2003 07:03									#170
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Plans for 340AD (Turn 150):


Unit Movement/Actions


1) Trasher to fortify in the TarZar white camp

2) new catapult finished in Red Bricks to be named 'Crusher' and moved NE-N-N

3) J.K. with LEF4 aboard to move N-N-NE
4) L.V. with LEF5 aboard to move NE-NE-NE
5) N.C. to fortify, ready for ferry duties if needed
6) I.N. to move W-SW-S, scouting
7) G.G. to move S-SW-W, scouting

8) LEF2 (Misty, Silver, Attila) to move E-NE
9) LEF3 (Arthur, Horace, Lancelot) to move NE and fortify
LEF1+2+3 finally together

10) Mercurio (Panama garrison) to move S-S-S
11) Numero Uno (K'ville garrison) to move NE-N-N for an upgrade in Panama
12) St. Merc (Karina garrison) to move E-SE-E
13) Mercx (Logville garrison) to move NW-NW-NW for an upgrade in Karina
14) Forkmerc (Crossing garrison) to move SW-SW and fortify
15) Mercus Aurelius (Jack-D.F. WC) to move NW-N and fortify
16) Merril to fortify in the D.F.-Tar white camp
17) Max Payne (TarZar W.C.) to move NW-N and fortify
18) Merc Twain to fortify near the Tipperarry site
19) Ming to move S, escorting Frank Jr.

20) settler 'Castle' to move NE-NE-NE, towards the Castlea site
21) settler 'Tipper' to move W-SW-SW towards the Tipperary site (the last Southern city site)


Worker Movement/Actions

22) Jack or Charlie to move NE and mine (only one of them should be ready)

23) Frank Jr. to move S; will connect the horse to Q.M.

24) Gus to mine
25) Stanley to mine

26) Adam to road
27) Bruno to road

28) Peter to move W and irrigate
more fresh water for S'haven area

29) Patrick to move W-S, then road

30) Farmer to move SW, then road
31) Mark to road
both will finish the road at the same time, connecting Horsefish - and mining the hill together then

32) Pink to clear jungle
see the GA thread for details on Dye Fields GA preparations

33) rename captured worker to 'Bob' and order him to road
the road system in that area could sure use some improvement to prevent traffic jams

34) Jason to move S-SE, then irrigate (to bring fresh water to the Castlea radius

35) Leopold to move SE and irrigate

36) Logger to move NW-W-SW, then road
then W-W and irrigate - only 1 more turn than if going NW-N-NW, W-W-S, S-W & irrigate

37) Luke to move W-SW and mine
38) Rover to move SW-SW, then road

39) Chris to move S-SW, then road

40) Jimbo to move W-SW, then road
41) Ken to mine


City Management

42) Farmerville to work all available riverbank tiles, but one raded/mined regular grassland

43) Red Bricks to work the bonus grass, all irrigated tiles, and roaded/mined regular grasses; start another cat

44) Forkmouth to work all improved tiles but the desert and hill NW-NW
knight in 2, +5fpt

45) Kloreepville to work 1 coast, all 3 irrigated grasslands, the grassland being irrigated by Leopold (W of the city), and 1 hill; start catapult
growth in 1 (Leopold will have his irrigation project ready by the next turn); not 100% sure about the build, might as well be library or marketplace?

46) reassign the Abilene labourer to the roaded grassland
just for 1 turn, to help Ahhmyfoot finish the temple in a single turn[/b]

47) reassign Ahhmyfoot labourer from plains to the roaded/mined bonus grassland W-SW
temple in 1

48) send dyes as 'accepted' to GoW

	17-11-2003 06:02									#171
	Full PM-box? Change here!

FYI, I have spent some time with the plan for Jackson. I believe it's our best city for the GA trigger wonder build. Low corruption, decent growth potential and shield output up to 22spt at pop 12.

I have come up with an IMHO pretty viable plan of having Magellan's built there in about 25 turns from now (after finishing the current knight build, squeezing in a marketplace, and then the wonder).

Be so kind, have a look here and tell me what you think.

	17-11-2003 11:08									#172
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Who am I to argue with such a well laid out plan. I vote for Jackson.

Leo

	17-11-2003 11:19									#173
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by vondrack I just cannot believe they were researching Edu on their own at 25bpt during the war. But if they did not research it themselves, they must have gotten it from GS (Vox do not have Edu, GoW and ND were in the state of war with RP). But... GS promised to not trade Edu to anyone without our consent (check the trade agreement).

This is definitely something we should ask GS in the upcoming chat.

	17-11-2003 19:50									#174
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Jackson as GA city: Agreed. That was my gut feeling, and now you give us the formula to prove it

RP and Edu: Hmm... highly unlikely they would have gotten it on their own. Definately bring up with GS in the next chat.

	22-11-2003 19:59									#175
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

OK, after going through the save, everything seems to be as planned. I will make two changes/additions.

a) Philippe is ready to do something useful, so I will move him NW-NW-NW (then irrigate to speed the growth of Karina up)

b) change Panama WF allocation for faster growth - we need three more turns to finish the knight there (cannot do it in 2), so let's slow down shield-wise and speed up growth-wise a bit (we can grow in 2 instead of 3).

	22-11-2003 20:35									#176
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Maybe it'd be better for Philippe to irrigate the bonus grass NW instead. (part of Karina's GA setup)

	22-11-2003 22:04									#177
	Got spare money?

Tibi, we would not be able to finish the knight in Karina in 1 turn (the irrigation would be done before the knight and thus, we would be short of 1 shield). Very soon, we will irrigate that bonus grass, but not yet.

Last edited by vondrack on 22-11-2003 at 22:10

	26-11-2003 01:52									#178
	Support Apolyton

Sorry for being late with the plan. Busy week.

Plans for 350AD (Turn 151):


Unit Movement/Actions

1) Crusher to move NE-E-SE

2) J.K. with LEF4 aboard to move N-N-N
3) L.V. with LEF5 aboard to move E-E-E
4) LEF5 (Merciless, Marky Merc, Galahad) to land NE (or E, if NE blocked)
5) I.N. to move W-SW-S, scouting
6) G.G. to move W-W-W, scouting

7) LEF123 to move S-E-SE
see my post in the Operation Glorious Plastic thread

8) new knight finished in Jackson to be named 'Gaheris', moved S-S and fortified in the JackDF whitecamp
9) Geraint (JackDF w.c.) to move S-SE-S-S and fortify in the TarDF whitecamp

10) new knight finished in Karina to be named 'Bors', moved E-SE-E-NE and fortified in the CrossLog whitecamp

11) Mercurio to move SW and fortify in Kloreepville
12) Numero Uno to move N and fortify in Panama
13) St. Merc to move S-SE and fortify in Logville
14) Mercx (Logville garrison) to move NW-W and fortify in Karina
15) Forkmerc to move NE-NE and fortify
16) Max Payne (JackDF W.C.) to move N-N and fortify in Jackson
17) Ming to move S, escorting Frank Jr.

18) settler 'Castle' to move N, towards the Castlea site
19) settler 'Tipper' to move SW-W-S towards the Tipperary site (the last Southern city site)


Worker Movement/Actions

20) Jinxo to irrigate, then road

21) Jason to irrigate, bringing fresh water towards the Castlea radius

22) Michael to road

23) Charlie to move NE and mine

24) Forrest to irrigate

25) Patrick to road

26) Martin to move N-NW-N, then NE and clear jungle (together with George)

27) Toby to move E and irrigate

28) Adam or Bruno to mine (only one will be ready)

29) Philippe to irrigate

30) Logger to road

31) Frank Jr. to move S; will connect the horse to Q.M.

32) Rover to road

33) Chris to road

34) Farmer to road

35) Jimbo to road


City Management

36) Jackson to start marketplace
as per our GA plan

37) reassign Sharpehaven labourer from the roaded/irrigated grassland SE-SE to the roaded/irrigated grassland S
freeing the irrigated tile SE-SE for Forkmouth

38) reassign Forkmouth labourer from the fully improved hill W to the roaded/irrigated grassland N-NW
make sure we still finish knight in 1; +7fpt

39) Karina to start another knight

40) Logville to work wheat, irrigated bonus grass, irrigated plains, irrigated grass, and two fully improved hills

41) Oasis to work both irrigated tiles and the roaded/mined grassland

42) Invoice to work the unimproved grassland
freeing the irrigated-to-be grass for Kloreepville

43) Kloreepville to work all 4 irrigated grasslands, roaded grassland W-NW and two fully improved hills
maxxing the growth (+5fpt)

44) reassign Ahhmyfoot labourer from the roaded/mined bonus grassland back to the roaded/irrigated plains; start barracks

45) Tiberium to work all land tiles except the unimproved grassland
we are already at max pop, so let's squeeze every single shield out of the city now

46) reassign the Abilene labourer back to the roaded/mined bonus grassland

47) send iron as 'accepted' to GoW/China

Last edited by vondrack on 26-11-2003 at 05:19

	26-11-2003 10:38									#179
	Support Apolyton

I looked at the save and found no surprises.

I also used all the F-keys with no crashes.

	26-11-2003 13:45									#180
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

OK, after going through the save, I suggest only one minor change - and it's not even urgent, we can leave it for the next turn...

Considering that Kloreepville now has 8S and 8spt (at 5fpt), I suggest we switch the build to barracks to make the best use of the setup. Cats would take 3 turns, with the waste of 4 shields per cat, while barracks will be done in 5 turns, with no wasted shields at all. Since we wanted to change Kloreepvile into a military production center anyway, I guess we could start right away. Red Bricks is on a steady 3-turn cat production and should cover our needs for the near future.

Save played fine for me, too. No crashes.

EDIT: oh, and btw, GS seems to have the landing points not covered. LEF123 can see no units of GS.