07-08-2003 06:02									#61
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quote: Originally posted by Sava I think Kennedy showed great leadership and had a distinct progressive vision. I would rate him as the second best 1946-2003 president.

Growing up hearing about Kennedy one would have thought he was some kind of sainted hero. But I'm still wondering what he did. What is that he did besides handling the Cuban missile crisis that has so many people saying he was a great President?


For the record, I'm not that hot on Reagan either. I don't think he was a terrible president, but I don't exactly consider him great.

	07-08-2003 06:03									#62
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He invented the Internet?

Wait that was Al Gore . . .

no wait, that wasn't him, either.

	07-08-2003 06:04									#63
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Clinton.

	07-08-2003 06:26									#64
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Worst:

1790-1877 Buchanan - sat around while the country got more and more riled up for war

1878-1945 Wilson - an ultra-racist, even for his era (even worse than TR), who was so damned idealist he wouldn't compromise with the Congress, which eventually led to his pet project (League of Nations) being derailed.

1946-2003 Kennedy - a worthless President who blundered his way around and talked tough... almost like a Democrat George W... Kennedy even cut taxes!

	07-08-2003 07:59									#65
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I think one point people forget about Reagan is that he had to follow Carter; his accomplishments are much more remarkable when viewed in that context.

	07-08-2003 22:37									#66
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Reagan is one of the worst in my view, due to his negligence in the early days of the AIDS crisis, when some researchers already had strong theories on how the disease was spreading.

	07-08-2003 22:38									#67
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Kennedy was great dammit!

He takes more credit winning the cold war than Reagan dammit!!

	07-08-2003 22:38									#68
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Mr.Fun: Who would have ever thought you'd be a one issue voter?

Last edited by Imran Siddiqui on 07-08-2003 at 22:49

	07-08-2003 22:40									#69
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1790 - 1877
Thomas Jefferson (because he did everything)

1878 - 1945
Chester A. Arthur (because he did nothing)

1946 - 2003
Harry Truman (because he had balls)

	07-08-2003 22:49									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident Kennedy was great dammit! He takes more credit winning the cold war than Reagan dammit!!

I agree. Kennedy did more against the fight against the Soviets in 1 year than Reagan did in a lifetime.

	07-08-2003 22:51									#71
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Yeah, but I have a hard time voting for Kennedy as many will just assume it's a sympathy vote. Though a vote Kennedy is a vote for Arnold

	07-08-2003 22:53									#72
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quote: Originally posted by Japher Yeah, but I have a hard time voting for Kennedy as many will just assume it's a sympathy vote.

I agree, I couldn't vote for him because he didn't finish his presidency.

quote: Though a vote Kennedy is a vote for Arnold

What? Schwarzenegger? huh? are you daft?

	07-08-2003 22:53									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident Kennedy was great dammit! He takes more credit winning the cold war than Reagan dammit!!

What, for being a total moron who was over his head? Instead of negotiating during the Cuban Missle Crisis taking it to the public (and making it a 'crisis')? By telling Cuban refugees to invade Cuba and then not giving them the air support he promised leading to the slaughter of the Bay of Pigs?

How, really, did he win the Cold War when it raged on for over 25 years after he died.

Kennedy was only good for one thing... getting shot .

	07-08-2003 22:58									#74
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I guess the Reagan-asslicking club has it's own version of revisionist history.

	07-08-2003 23:02									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Mr.Fun: Who would have ever thought you'd be a one issue voter?

Sorry I am outraged over Reagan's AIDS crisis policy.

	07-08-2003 23:10									#76
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Sorry Sava, any historian worth his weight realizes that Kennedy has been sanctified without cause. He had a horrible Presidency and there were definate concerns that he might have lost his re-election bid. Getting shot was the best thing that happened to his legacy.

As Sikander (no ideologue) said:

quote: Oh, and Kennedy has to rate as one of the worst presidents of the modern era, making the pathetic hero worship of him (especially when I was a kid) all the more ironic / moronic.

	07-08-2003 23:25									#77
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1. Abe Lincoln
2. FDR
3. Ronald Reagan

For those of you who question Ronald Reagan, he was voted our greatest president in a recent poll.

	07-08-2003 23:35									#78
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quote: Originally posted by Ned For those of you who question Ronald Reagan, he was voted our greatest president in a recent poll.

Yeah, and 60% of America can't find Sweden on a map. I don't care what the dumb thinks.

	07-08-2003 23:38									#79
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quote: Sorry Sava, any historian worth his weight realizes that Kennedy has been sanctified without cause. He had a horrible Presidency and there were definate concerns that he might have lost his re-election bid. Getting shot was the best thing that happened to his legacy.

You are arguing one point, completely unrelated to my own. Kennedy did more to fight the Soviets than Reagan did. Period. In fact, I agree that Kennedy's presidency has been sanctified because of his death. Your little distraction still won't take away from the fact that Reagan didn't do that much to contribute to the Soviet collapse. In fact, Reagan created more problems than he solved with regards to foreign policies and enemies of America.

	07-08-2003 23:42									#80
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I can't believe so many people, including some left-leaning people, mentioned TR. TR was a good 'ole warmongering SOB... kinda like what Dubya is currently accused of being.

I'll go with:

-Jefferson
-FDR
-Ike

I'm not a big fan of some of the stuff that FDR did (Social Security... what a ponzi scheme!), but he had the ability to communicate with the people and pull them through a tough time (whether or not the actual policies were brilliant) and he seems to have been a good guy to have running the show when the **** hit the fan (WWII).

As for the JFK debate, I side with Sikander & Imran here. He just wasn't that good. He had some memorable quotes, which is a plus (even the "funny ich bin ein berliner" one), but I do think his "handling" of the Cuban missle crisis was dangerously clumsy, and the Bay of Pigs was a total disaster.

LBJ? Please.

Nixon? Accomplished some important things, but the fact he was a lying bastard who thought he was above the law kinda wipes that out.

Reagan? I have rather fond memories of that era, but there are a lot of negatives:

-Iran-Contra
-the AIDS thing Funman mentioned. That was bad, fellas.
-renewed the "war on drugs" with a vengence. It didn't work, and it cost billions.
-the huge military spending. Actually, no, the failure to actually pay for it, instead of just running up a huge debt load. This blame also falls on Bush Sr., Clinton, and Bush Jr. Massive debt pisses me off.

-Arrian

	07-08-2003 23:43									#81
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quote: Kennedy did more to fight the Soviets than Reagan did.

Bullshit. The only President that did more to fight the Soviets than Reagan was Truman. Reagan took them head on and brought back Truman's policies which had been whittled away by detente. Increased pressure on the Soviets by more pressing on them and building SDI streached the Soviet machine to the limit.

Even Gorby will admit that the Soviet Union collapsed because of Reagan's pressure.

	07-08-2003 23:58									#82
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quote: Even Gorby will admit that the Soviet Union collapsed because of Reagan's pressure.

I recall a Gorby quote, "He (Reagan) received too much credit for the collapse of the USSR." But then again, the RAS (Reagan Asslicking Society) has it's own version of history that differs from the rest of the world.

	08-08-2003 00:04									#83
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Oh, you recall a Gorby quote? Then what does he think caused the collapse of the USSR, since Gorby did believe in communism (and still does to this day, IIRC).

Of course you've produced no evidence that Kennedy fought communism. Is the Missle Crisis the best you have?

	08-08-2003 00:12									#84
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun Reagan is one of the worst in my view, due to his negligence in the early days of the AIDS crisis, when some researchers already had strong theories on how the disease was spreading.

How is AIDS Reagan's fault?

	08-08-2003 00:33									#85
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AIDS wasn't anybody's fault. The Federal government's inept "response" to it was partly Reagan's fault.

-Arrian

	08-08-2003 00:42									#86
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1790 - 1877... Jefferson. All Presidents have their faults, he was no different. But I like his positive elements.

1878 - 1945... FDR. If Wilson weren't such a damn racist, he would win this spot, but alas...

1946 - 2003... Clinton. Things just felt... better back when he was in charge. Honourable mention to Truman.

Both LBJ and Nixon did things I both greatly admire (civil rights, China) and despise (Viet Nam, Watergate)... but I don't actively love or hate either.

Overall: Eeeee... FDR. He was no saint, but he did good for his time. It would be Clinton, but he ordered bombings to distract from his 'personal' troubles. Not unprecedented, but still not cool.

	08-08-2003 01:08									#87
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc How is AIDS Reagan's fault?

There were scientists who, early on, established the strong theory on how AIDS was spreading. Too many people including those in the gay community, and including politicians like Ron refused to take any serious plan of action.

	08-08-2003 01:16									#88
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1790 - 1877.. Washington provided a good example. Each of these earlier presidents were good, in different areas and to different extents. Lincoln was a good one, of course.

1878 - 1945 .. Calvin Coolidge was a good president, Teddy also.

1946 - 2003... Ronald Reagan and Truman are my two favorite presidents.

Washington(with a lot of other very good presidents succeeding him)

Coolidge

Ronald Reagan/Truman

	08-08-2003 02:07									#89
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quote: Is the Missle Crisis the best you have?

Oh yeah, the closest the world came to nuclear annihilation... pfft you are right that is insignificant.

	08-08-2003 02:45									#90
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Hit yourself harder, Sava . . . .

please?