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Caligastia is offline Caligastia
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Sep 2000
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quote:

Massachusetts recently began requiring bilingual-education teachers to pass English-fluency tests to keep their jobs. Teachers who have flunked the test are taking drastic action to address their obvious educational inadequacies -- they are suing their local school districts.


In Lowell, Mass., four Cambodian-born teachers who flunked have sued on grounds of discrimination. Failing teachers in other Massachusetts cities are consulting their lawyers, too. How they are doing this is not clear. Maybe they have interpreters.

Critics of bilingual education have long contended that rather than -- as advertised -- a way to ease immigrants into instruction in English, it constitutes an educational ghetto where students are taught in their native tongues and are kept from learning in English. The fluency debacle in Massachusetts is a stark demonstration of this critique.

In Somerville, Mass., the five bilingual teachers who took the test failed. In Lowell, 22 of 25 teachers failed. In Lawrence, 27 out of 31 teachers failed. The widespread failure to pass the test is a sign that bilingual education is a misnomer. It is really monolingual education, in any language but English.

Last November, Massachusetts approved a ballot referendum ditching bilingual education for immigrant children and moving to an English-immersion program instead. The referendum was the brainchild of entrepreneur Ron Unz, who sponsored a similar, successful initiative in California in 1998.

Unz believes that teaching children in English is the best way to teach them English. For most people, this is just common sense. But it is too much to expect a state education department to respect common sense or look after the educational interests of its students, especially if it requires confronting a politically correct interest group. Bilingual education is a favorite cause of left-wing ethnic lobbies that think English-only instruction is practically cultural imperialism -- never mind that it gives immigrant kids the tools to succeed in the United States.

So, Unz went to California voters. They passed an initiative in 1998 moving from bilingual to English-immersion instruction by a 2-to-1 margin. Every year since, the performance of Latino students in English-only classes has improved and outpaced that of students in holdover bilingual classes. Unz assumed all of this would provide the momentum to vanquish bilingual ed across the country. "I thought we could have this successful experiment in California," says Unz, "and it would roll on from there."

Instead, bilingual education has remained firmly entrenched nearly everywhere. Unz next went to Massachusetts, the most liberal state this side of Pluto, to prove again that bilingual education has no popular constituency. The initiative passed by 36 points.

It was the same as California's, with the exception of slightly stronger language calling for fluency in English from former bilingual teachers. "The places where you heard the most anecdotal stories of teachers not knowing English were in Massachusetts and New York City," says Unz.

The stories have borne out. Massachusetts teachers who will be shifted from bilingual ed to English immersion have been flunking an oral examination in which they are asked to do things like describe their jobs (apparently they don't even know how to say foreign languages"). "They have got to come up to par," says Rosalie Porter, a former bilingual teacher in Massachusetts who was a leader of the anti-bilingual initiative.

She became a bilingual teacher in the 1970s, when the program first began in Massachusetts, hoping to help immigrant children. She became convinced that bilingual ed was a catastrophe. "I saw that it absolutely didn't work," she says. "If we taught the kids in Spanish it would delay their learning of English, and delay it so much that it would be hard for them to catch up."

The California experience has proven what Porter has maintained for years. "Kids," she says, "will master the language quickly, maybe in a year, maybe two." If, that is, they are taught in English. Whether their former bilingual teachers will pick up the language as quickly, on the other hand, is very much in doubt.


http://www.townhall.com/columnists/...l20030805.shtml

Pekka is offline Pekka
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  Old Post 06-08-2003 21:17
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Yeah it's true. We had a german teacher who had lived here for some years because she married a finnish guy. So, she comes and teaches german to us, but she can't really speak finnish. Like almost at all. Boy did we learn good. She tried to waiv her hands and speak english in the middle and her finnish that was horrible and the rest of the teaching was just in german, like we'd understand it because we're there to learn it. It was horrible. She was pissed all the time, because well it must have been frustrating, only thing she took it on us.

I'm all for tests and stuff. If you can't speak the language, then you can't really teach using that language, now can you?

Park Avenue is offline Park Avenue
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  Old Post 06-08-2003 21:19
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You racist, Cali

Japher is offline Japher
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  Old Post 06-08-2003 21:22
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You racist, Cali


duh.

Bi-lingual means they can speak two languages, but they obviously can't and therefore lied on their resumes which is grounds for firing them anyway. So what's the deal? Heck, I guess I am bi-lingual because I speak English and Gibberish!

Park Avenue is offline Park Avenue
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  Old Post 06-08-2003 21:29
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I am predicting what is to come from the like of MrFun.

Japher is offline Japher
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Well, it is good to see that these stupid immigrants are at least attempting to assimilate; they lawyered-up!

Pekka is offline Pekka
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  Old Post 06-08-2003 21:30
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Japher, doesn't bi-lingual mean that you have to be so fluent in both of the languages that either one of them could be your native language?

DinoDoc is offline DinoDoc
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  Old Post 06-08-2003 21:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Pekka
Japher, doesn't bi-lingual mean that you have to be so fluent in both of the languages that either one of them could be your native language?
I would hope so. Considering that you have to teach in both languages.

Japher is offline Japher
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  Old Post 06-08-2003 21:34
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I don't know where the bondary is made between being an english speaker, something else speaker, or both speaker... The point is that these teachers most likely said they were able to speak two languages fluently, but couldn't...

Pekka is offline Pekka
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DD, Well that's what I always though. Let's say there could be lots of bi-lingual folks in Canada, speaking good english and french.

GePap is offline GePap
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  Old Post 06-08-2003 22:16
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quote:
Originally posted by DinoDoc
I would hope so. Considering that you have to teach in both languages.


Actually, in this country, no. When I first came here, I was in a bilingual class, and the amount of English instruction was next to nill, and relatively ineffective. I agree that it is an acedemic Ghetto: in my school, classes were divided by ability, so you had X-1 (X being the grade),2,3,4 and then billingual, at the very academic bottom. Kids got to move up and down these (I went from 3 to 2 to 1 in about 2 months), but for the most parts kids in billingual stayed either in billingual, or moved up to 4. My mom saw that my sister and I were not getting an english education, so she demanded that we be placed in an all english class, and that was the right decision.

Kids in bilingual education in the uS ends up as monolingual as Americans, but without knowing the language that they need most in the US.

Dom Pedro II is offline Dom Pedro II
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  Old Post 06-08-2003 22:22
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My Spanish teacher couldn't speak English at all. It was very difficult... especially since she didn't do anything. She was very incompetent.


Actually, my dad one time when he first came to this country took an English class at Columbia. There was a woman in the class who's English was TERRIBLE. And my father asked her once (because he spoke Spanish fluently already) why she was taking English. And she said she was a teacher in Harlem. And he asked her how long she'd been in the country and she said she was BORN HERE!

Japher is offline Japher
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  Old Post 06-08-2003 22:26
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Yeah, the main problem I see here is that most of these teachers are not trying to teach kids spanish, german, chinesse, what have you at an english speaking, American school, they are trying to teach kids English so that they can go to english speaking, American schools (ESL courses)... The F'ing teachers who lie to get a job (though the schools administration should be able to notice that they can't speak English) are depriving students of a proper education not only on how to speak English, but from every other course offered at the school and in life.

I hope a judge laughs this one right out of court because I do not want to see one tax dollar go towards this rediculous suit.

GePap is offline GePap
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  Old Post 06-08-2003 22:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Japher
Yeah, the main problem I see here is that most of these teachers are not trying to teach kids spanish, german, chinesse, what have you at an english speaking, American school, they are trying to teach kids English so that they can go to english speaking, American schools (ESL courses)... The F'ing teachers who lie to get a job (though the schools administration should be able to notice that they can't speak English) are depriving students of a proper education not only on how to speak English, but from every other course offered at the school and in life.

I hope a judge laughs this one right out of court because I do not want to see one tax dollar go towards this rediculous suit.


The point of these teachers Japher is NOT to teach these students english, it is to teach them other subjects in their native tounge. For that you really don;t need English, now do you? And that is why "bilingual education" is such a misnomer. And why it is a ghetto. The fact is that kids pick up language very quickly at a certain age. Put these kids in the normal classes, and within two, theree months, they will keep up, and in a year be fluent. They will most likely still speak their other language at home and thus be bilingual.

This sort of bilingual education should be done away with.

Japher is offline Japher
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  Old Post 06-08-2003 22:41
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ooooooohhhh

In that case... I'm still the same.

Dom Pedro II is offline Dom Pedro II
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  Old Post 06-08-2003 22:51
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GePap:

CorpusScorpius is offline CorpusScorpius
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Nov 2000
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  Old Post 06-08-2003 23:16
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Come on their English cant be that bad I do not hear of anyone complaining about those fabulous College Profs w/ accents so thick U have no clue as to what their saying

RedFred is offline RedFred
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Jun 1999
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  Old Post 06-08-2003 23:46
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Er...'so thick U have no clue as to what their saying' means 'so thick you have no clue what they are saying'?

mindseye is offline mindseye
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Apr 1999
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  Old Post 06-08-2003 23:46
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Has anyone in this thread studied a technical subject like mathematics or chemisty in a language they were not proficient in?

I once dated a Vietnamese guy who earned a technical degree in computers (studying things like Assembly language), even though his English was pretty elementary. I'm curious about the experiences of others.

While I sympathize with some of the author's intentions, the piece has some serious flaws.

quote:
four Cambodian-born teachers who flunked
What was the test like? How large is the supply of Cambodian-speaking teachers in the Lowell area? If they were teaching in Cambodian, how well did they need to speak English?

quote:
Massachusetts teachers (...) have been flunking an oral examination in which they are asked to (...) describe their jobs (apparently they don't even know how to say "foreign languages").
Notice that we don't know which part of the oral test they actually flunked, it's the columnist's jab that they did not know how to say "foreign languages". For all we know, they flunked because they couldn't explain what a past participle is. I wonder if the test they took was similar to the American TOEFL test, which is not a very reliable indicator of one's English-speaking abilities (it's a better indicator of one's ability to memorize long lists of obscure, seldom-used words).

I understand all the good reasons not to create an academic ghetto, but I think arguments to completely scrap bi-lingual teaching are terribly short-sighted (and usually made by mono-linguists). Wouldn't it be better to fix the proram? How about easing the kids into learning in English? Wouldn't that be a better idea all-around?

As to those who advocate abandoning the program altogether, I wonder how well their children would do studying chemistry in Cambodian? Would they really "pick up" Cambodian, or would they get frustrated and drop out?

DinoDoc is offline DinoDoc
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quote:
Originally posted by mindseye
Has anyone in this thread studied a technical subject like mathematics or chemisty in a language they were not proficient in?
Does this somehow mean that bilingual teachers shouldn't be bilingual?

Japher is offline Japher
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The author takes a lot of jabs:

quote:
Failing teachers in other Massachusetts cities are consulting their lawyers, too. How they are doing this is not clear. Maybe they have interpreters


Hahaha, shud-up!

The point of the matter minds-eye is that they are teachers. They are suppose to be teaching bilingual education with English being one of the languages, and they aren't, because they aren't bilingual with English being one of the languages.

GePap is offline GePap
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  Old Post 07-08-2003 00:52
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There is a very big difference mindseye from learning a technoical subject at a high level (seocndary, university and beyond) and primary education, which is the issue here. I had calculus teahcers who could not speak enlgihs well: that did not matter, becuase you don;t need to know much english to explain calculus to a bunch of colege kids.

Most kids on "bilingal" education end up monolingual, since they neevr get adequate training in english. That is why it is a misnomer. Children at elementary leevl will quickly pick up the language and do as well as they might based on thier ability: they will be fully bilingual since they are likely to speak their native tounge at home, and in the end will end up with an advantage over monolingual Americans who get crappy foreign language education.

Albert Speer is offline Albert Speer
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  Old Post 07-08-2003 01:10
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dated a guy, mindseye? you're gay too?!

Urban Ranger is offline Urban Ranger
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  Old Post 07-08-2003 08:17
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quote:
Originally posted by GePap
They will most likely still speak their other language at home and thus be bilingual.


Not from what I have seen. The kids only speak English after a while, even at home. Some do comprehend their own native tongue while others don't.

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quote:
Originally posted by mindseye
I wonder if the test they took was similar to the American TOEFL test, which is not a very reliable indicator of one's English-speaking abilities (it's a better indicator of one's ability to memorize long lists of obscure, seldom-used words).


TOEFL is okay, SAT Verbal is much worse.

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Not from what I have seen. The kids only speak English after a while, even at home. Some do comprehend their own native tongue while others don't.


That outcome is more a result of what parents do, not the schools. If parents continue to seak to their children in theirnative language they will retain understanding at least, if not full fluency. Tha state can do nothing about that, but for a child to succeed in the US they need to know english.

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quote:
Originally posted by GePap
quote:
Not from what I have seen. The kids only speak English after a while, even at home. Some do comprehend their own native tongue while others don't.


That outcome is more a result of what parents do, not the schools. If parents continue to seak to their children in theirnative language they will retain understanding at least, if not full fluency. Tha state can do nothing about that, but for a child to succeed in the US they need to know english.


The parents continued to speak their native language (Cantonese Chinese to be specific) to the kids but the kids would refuse to speak the language, somehow viewing it to be a lower language

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  Old Post 07-08-2003 08:29
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Well, then that is the result of intollerance by the kids.

My sister is a bit like this: she won;t speak Spanish on her own, though she remains fully bilingual.

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quote:
Originally posted by GePap
Well, then that is the result of intollerance by the kids.

My sister is a bit like this: she won;t speak Spanish on her own, though she remains fully bilingual.


The thing is, this situation is pretty widespread. None of the ABC's (American Born Chinese), CBC's (Candian Born Chinese) or even first generation immigrants who went to the US or Canada when they were kids (as old as 14 or 15) I have met could speak any Chinese dialect fluently, let alone read and write.

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  Old Post 07-08-2003 08:59
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Well, that is an issue for the Chinese community, no? cause the same is not true for Hispanics or Russian immigrants I have met.

 
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