07-08-2003 09:57									#1
	PTWDG vs Fun Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I wanted to let you all know that I am going to be leaving GS (or more precisely, the PTWDG) soon. It's something I've been considering off and on for several months now.

I've enjoyed taking part in the discussions within GS. It's been great to share ideas about game mechanics, strategy, and means to interact with other teams. Thank you all for that.

The tone of the game has been getting progressively further and further from what I had envisioned when joining though. I find it difficult to read the public forum without the negative energy prevailent there from finding it's way into my posting and thoughts. Even 'in-game' communications seem to be headed in that direction as well. In short, the game is no longer enjoyable for me, and I just want to be finished with it.

Good luck to you guys in the rest of the game, will definitely be rooting for you!

	07-08-2003 10:43									#2
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Oh, my. Please, hang on.

	07-08-2003 10:47									#3
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I had rough times too and I got over it. I no longer care about the public forum since Beta's last public stunt. You'll get over it too, I'm sure.

	07-08-2003 10:48									#4
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I am wondering if all of us can agree to ignore those threads and allow just one or two of us, who know how to address the mobs to speak for all of us.

If we cannot agree to this now, if we cannot head off similar threads to this in future, then I think I will pack it too. It just is not fun to always chase our own tails and never learn from the past.

	07-08-2003 10:52									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Shiber I had rough times too and I got over it. I no longer care about the public forum since Beta's last public stunt. You'll get over it too, I'm sure.

Unfortunately, Shiber, you really are not helping. You may be over it, but getting into the digs with UnO on the wrong ground, is not productive for GS as a whole, and certainly not with some individuals.

UnO needed very careful handeling. He did not get that.

When 6 or 8 of us all shout, we seem like a bunch of shouting monkeys, all throwing pooh.

I cannot say that everything I have said has been productive, but I have taken the individuals into account. That incident with UnO never should have happened.

	07-08-2003 12:47									#6
	Got spare money?

There is wisdom to be had around here, somewhere. I have been chatting with E_T about the situation on the public forum. He said this:

quote: THen if that is such a concern, then we need to do 1 of a few things 1) post a new thread about some of your fears and what this game is supposed to accomplish 2) call for a hault to the game, on those grounds 3) a mixture of the above ... If anything, of all of the teams that is in the PTWDG, RP is likely haveing the best fun, with it's RPing. Lego would likely be second, as they haven't had to deal with any of this, except as a 3rd party If you have 1 person playing 1 civ, it's fun If you do that and give them the ability to post trash (and that litierally what we are talking out here) while playing their game, then they would likely loose a bit of that fun multiply that to each civ being a team of people, then you make a relatively small problem into a big and nasty one

Our concerns? Well, we have lost at least one mate due to the... stuff on the forum. Another couple are running seriously low on interest.

What should we do about it?

	07-08-2003 13:12									#7
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Just do what I do, Aeson: Ignore what threads are there that have the most political bents. Frankly, it has little, if anything, to do with the game itself.

	07-08-2003 13:41									#8
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I can perfectly understand Aeson, as I feel the same and stated this long ago. This game has nothing to do with fun anymore and it creates hard feelings in me against a lot of posters. May be I'm taking it too serious, but I'm having a hard time talking with people like Togas and Hot_Enamel, and I don't visit MZO anymore because I disliked Master Zen a lot in the past weeks. This has nothing to do with the kind of entertainment I seek in these games.

I reluctantly joined the second game, so far it's fun, but I see with bad feelings, that the same people, who insulted me in this game, participate there also. On the first sign, that the second game turns into a flame fest too, I will reduce my participation there to nearly zero as well.

	07-08-2003 14:31									#9
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The manifesto thread is certainly an embarrassment to the community. I can't blame you (Aeson) for wanting to stop playing after that mess. It really sucks the life out of it for me too (and I think I only posted a smiley in the thread!) Seems to be a disproportionate amount of hate and anger in that thread, from all sides, e.g. Uno's comments.

walking away with your decency still intact does not seem like a bad proposition. The game, meant to be a source of enjoyment and brotherhood (in a matter of speaking) at Apolyton has become a source of divisive vitriol. Plenty of blame to go around for that, including here at GS. What can be done? I don't know, other than just quitting outright, which would be a disservice to all the time we put in (especially NYE and Nathan).

	07-08-2003 14:34									#10
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I'm really sorry to see you leave Aeson- but there might be a way to avoid it- simply don't visit the public forum, if there will be anything important going on, we'll let you know

I can also say I feel for Aeson's and others situation, the fun scale of this game has plummeted over the last couple of weeks, with the renewed wave of BS, that seems to have affected everyone (even us in some ways... ), but there's still more fun to be had with this game.
Aeson, I hope you change your mind (at least until we secure Bob, ).

	07-08-2003 14:43									#11
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Frankly, there's an enormous part of me that wouldn't mind walking away from the game myself. It's been fun, but it's also eaten up an absolutely ludicrous amount of time that I could have found better things to do with, and it promises to eat a lot more. (Yes, we have a good time, but what does Gathering Storm do that makes the real world a better place for our having played the game?) The one thing that absolutely cannot happen is for me to stay if a large (or relatively active) part of the rest of the team goes. I'm stretched too thin already.

	07-08-2003 17:24									#12
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I'm staying. I'm not one of the hugely active members, but neither have I been passive.

Despite the crapola in the public forum, I still want to see how all of this ends up.

Aeson, I'm sorry to see you go. I understand, of course, but your leaving will weaken us. You're one of our best 'n brightest. Seeya 'round.

-Arrian

	07-08-2003 21:26									#13
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I'm sorry to see you go, Aeson

If you could be pursuaded to stay, I would certainly do my utmost best to pursuade you... but as much as I know you, I feel the decision has been made, and won't be revoked.

Good luck to you, Aeson, and thanks for being part of our team. Don't leave and never return, though, we have more members not that active, which visit from time to time...

DeepO

	08-08-2003 03:55									#14
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I am staying.

And, although my first reaction precisely matched DeepO's sentiment in the previous post...

I would rather say:

F*CK THAT!!!!

What in friggin' hell has got your goat? Are you here to get along with those on other teams who chose to be craven bastards?

F*CK'EM, who gives a rat's ass?

I am here, on GS, and I ain't ever gonna quit, 'cause of you guys. All of you. I certainly consider everybody on GS to be just about my best friends in the Civ3 community and even RL... hell, a couple days go by and I don;t see Arrian or SR in the Strat forum, and you guys in here, and I get flipped out. I can't think of anyone but Amy who I have spent more time with over the last year and a half.

And I'm also here because of the Strat forum... yeah, so Nathan's right, none of this affects the real world, but WE HAVE CHOSEN to make Civ3 a big part of our lives, and to develop an expertise in it of which I am proud... and that's all about the Strat forum, baby, and the Strat forum GUYS with their teammates in GS are gonna f*cking win this game!!

So, Aeson, you're gonna f*cking bug out on me and us? And you nye? And Nathan? And Sir Ralph?

In other words, you're gonna let the f*ckers run their lowlife juvenile psyops crap, and friggin' WIN the battle for your hearts and minds?

The more I think about it, in contrast to DeepO's post, I just don't believe it.

I think I've weathered the storm in public better than most, and I have a pretty good rep and a level of respect with most everyone. I will do WHATEVER you guys want me to in order to get the tenor of the game to an acceptable point, so we can get back to having some fun.

	08-08-2003 03:55									#15
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I think we all know the solution to this problem, yet we fall into the same trap thread after thread.

I propose we impose a strict rule. No one from GS posts in a flame thread except for one of us, our official spokesman. This would apply to all of us. No exceptions.

If there is no fuel, our posts, there can be no fire.

Who would be that spokesman?

	08-08-2003 03:56									#16
	Put an end to popups!

Read the post above yours, nye.

	08-08-2003 06:04									#17
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I saw it, Theseus. Poly would not let me reply earlier.

I do not want to quit. I will not, most likely. However, I do not want to go through the rest of the game with periodic train wrecks like that thread. It just ain't fun to have people like UnO decide that GS must die, no matter what. The game becomes that for him, and GoW. Now, not only is that unpleasant, but the chances for victory are seriously diminished when a viable team decides that someone is gonna win, but it sure as hockey is not going to be GS.

I guess what I am doing is demanding that we actually act on our experiences and not simply moan about the outcome of the last flame fest, but to actually change our behaviour so that the next time one comes up, and there will be a next time, then the other guys will be the ones getting singed, and our members will not feel too put upon.

I am firmly convinced that there is a right way to handle those threads, and many wrong ways. The right way is to find the points on which the flamers are vulnerable and hammer them. Ignore all else as much as possible. Among the wrong ways is... well, there are many wrong ways. The worst is to get too many of us involved and to provide ample fuel for the flamers to continue to insult us at length.

	08-08-2003 06:05									#18
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Received from Beta.

quote: NYE - the recent debates, and Nathan's thread on having fun got me to thinking. And I wanted to say something to you guys, but not in an open forum. So, if OK with you, I will send it to you. If you think this is really out of line, let me know, and you can choose not to post it. To GS, with caring. And I'm serious about that. I really hope I am not out of line here, and I know I am not a long-time Poly member. But I have been in the demogame since the start, and in the thick of a lot of the discussion personally. In RL, as a director of a large number of staff, and extensive social programs, I have considerable experience in dealing with people. Which in fact is what this game is all about. I say that so you realize that it is not an 16 year old with limited life experience talking. To start with - I for one want you to stay in the game. But my real purpose in writing this is to give you an outsiders perspective on GS, and why perhaps you feel a lot of the 'stuff' is directed at you. I acknowledge that Nathan has asked the question about it not being 'fun', and Sir Ralph has indicated no. And I am left asking myself why? GS has been in the thick of a lot of the action - both diplomatically and militarily. It should be fun. I am left with the conclusion - and which has been stated - that you feel like you have been 'trashed' and 'insulted'. You probably have a sense that the world is against you. Well - the truth of the matter is - they are. Accept that. I think you realize it. You must have known it from the start. Your team is stacked with arguably the best civ talent at Apolyton. That explains part of it, but it is a key part. One of the driving forces behind the Vox war was our desire to go 10 rounds with Mohamed Ali and come out the winner. I'll be honest about it. We would have loved to beat you early - simply because you were GS and the strat guys. The game situation clearly had a lot to do with it, but I gotta tell you, there was this other motivator. The other part - and this is the part I think you have difficulty understanding- you can be a pain to deal with. Really, you can. You often come across arrogant, and self-righteous, and get defensive very quickly. Again - speaking for myself and Vox - the early Estonia Land treaty discussions left us with a serious grudge. And other teams have shared their various stories of dealings with GS where you have come across condescending. Also you react very defensively in public - as in "Omigod, how could you do that to us." It has been the same pattern after the Vox invasion as with the current GoW fiasco. Now - let me put this into perspective. It is not all the time, nor with all of you. But to a sufficient degree that your team personna precedes you. And I can't fully explain it - although I have thought about it for quite awhile. It may be certain individuals and the way they come across. It may be a strat-forum lecturing style that does not work well in a demo game. It may be your expectation that the other teams should behave in a certain way as dictated by logic as you see it - and then they don't. It may be a very strong team dynamic that comes across too strong with others. It may be your unrealistic expectations of other teams to play by standards you have set for yourself. It may be a combination of some or all of these and other things I haven't thought about. But - you have to know - it is there. And in saying that I am not 'trashing' or 'insulting' you. It just is. So go with it. But for godz sake, be light-hearted about it. Have fun! No one dislikes you individually - in fact everyone genuinely cares for you as individuals. No one wants to bring you personal grief. No one dislikes you as a team either. Yes - most of the world wants to defeat you - you are perceived as the number one threat in the game - especially after the Voxodus. But there is the challenge. Accept it. Enjoy it. And yes Lego is out there - but they have laid low. (In may respects I feel sorry for them. Pretty boring game for them so far.) But GS is still the top seed. Know it and deal with it. And yes - teams will break deals. (speaking from experience here). That is part of the game. Go with it. And as to who is right or wrong about a certain situation or NAP or MPP? Well - both sides are - according to them. And in the end - does it really matter? And yes - you will bend the odd 'standard ' as well. You have admitted publicly to some of the deception used prior to the GoW and RP event. My word of advice - for what it is worth (and a number of you may have stopped reading already) is do not get so defensive about these things. You know what the game is all about. You are still in a great position. You still have the core of your team intact. There is a lot of the game left to play. Adjust the sensitivity lever from its current setting of 10 down to about a 4. One of the great things about this game is the different personnae the various teams have taken. So - be GS. Just mellow a bit, for the sake of your own enjoyment. And - stay in the game. It would not be the same without you. Thanks for listening. I apologize if this was out of line. Sincerely ... Beta.

	08-08-2003 07:49									#19
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Beta is right on target...



Guys, instead of all this talk of resigning or whatever, can I suggest that we each individually focus on the parts of the game we really like, and shrug the rest off?

	08-08-2003 08:33									#20
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I volunteer to be the public voice. It will be subject to my work schedule, so some responses may be delayed... that's prolly a good thing though, as it will provide time for the team to formulate responses in good measure, and in the privacy of the GS forum.

And 4am calls are NOT allowed for this function. Also, I figure I might roleplay things a little... keep it lighter and more fun.

	08-08-2003 09:05									#21
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

That could work very well, Theseus. Silence is golden, sometimes.

	08-08-2003 09:29									#22
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I'm not sure how to explain it Theseus. It's not what is being said in the forum, it's the nature of the discussion, and even things not being said. I have very thick skin. I could care less what anyone says about me, GS, whatever. I will always be a million times harder on myself than anyone else possibly could be.

You don't have to see the 20 posts I write up and dismiss before landing on a wording I feel comfortable with, or the other ones rattling in my head. I do. There's a part of me that just loves debate of a rather mean nature. Not to prove a point, or refute one, but to intellectually beat down on someone. I don't like dealing with those thoughts, and they're there now because of who I am and how this game has progressed publicly and privately.

This isn't a game to me any more. It's no fun, even if certain aspects of it are enjoyable. Part of being the person you want to be is making sure you don't put yourself in situations where you will fail in that regard. This is one of those situations that I can't be who I want to be in.

	08-08-2003 09:35									#23
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I am very sorry to hear that, Aeson.

I think Theseus believes, and I share that view, that the solution to the public forum mess is within ourselves.

	08-08-2003 17:40									#24
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Wow, kudos to Beta. That was a well-written, insightful, and rather kind message.

And I think we should take it to heart. I also think (saying this as one of the biggest offenders) that NYE is right that we need to avoid the public forum. I've said that before, I know. I actually don't have particularly thick skin, and I manage to allow myself to be sucked into arguments I shouldn't be in (OTF comes to mind).

It's really hard for me not to take things personally (in the public forum). Part of that is I'm not a roleplayer, so what I say really is me. Part of it is that I was hoping for more "grand alliances" than backstabbing politics. There is probably more, but I'm not up for extensive psychoanalysis this early in the morning.

Anyway, I'm in, and I hope the rest of you stay in too. We're facing a 2 on 1 war (RP doesn't count anymore, really) with 2 civs in their golden ages, and the only neutral civ that counts is far more likely to eventually oppose us than they are to support us. ALRIGHTY THEN! Let's kick some ass!

Aeson will be missed. It sucks, but that's the way it is. I salute him for his efforts, and wave a goodbye... and then turn back to the map.

We have to figure out how to get those Riders out in the open so we can slaughter them, or convince them to attack a fortified position!

-Arrian

	08-08-2003 22:52									#25
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I'm in as well- this time of crisis is a crucial point, those who stay- they will make the Gathering Storm from now on, and for those who don't: fare well, and come back when you can, the storm shall embrace you.

Judging from what I heard from different teams, like GoW and ND, I think we do have a special team dynamics, we do play our game differently and deserve to be somewhat 'arrogant' as others see it. I no longer feel like we're the one's to blame for most of it, although that as NYE, in the public arena, this could be handled easily. Its just that I think that more than our 'arrogance' being reflected in our words and actions on the public board, it is the other's prejudices that make it all fit into the 'GS are arrogants" mold. I actually believe this team was the most forgiving, patient and understanding of them all, to its own members and the other teams- but still we're 'hated'.
This cannot be explained logically or by our actions and words alone, although they might do to help revive those emotions, this has to come from someplace else, primordial...

	09-08-2003 04:06									#26
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Oh, and btw Nathan, there is a possible RL connection for me.

I do corporate real estate consulting and brokerage... Atari's US HQ is just a few blocks from me, and I've been pursuing their CEO, Bruno Bonnell, to represent them nationwide (e.g., as we represent Electronic Arts). He knows I'm way into Civ3, and I also shot Jeff Foley a PM about the situation, and that Richard Podos = Theseus, and asking him to explain who 'Theseus' is if asked.

In other words, Amy has friggin' threatened my life if I don;t turn Civ3 into some $$$!!!

	09-08-2003 04:43									#28
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

That's a bit of (perhaps righteous) life philosophy- but would you turn this wonderful hobby into a business? This might ruin you enjoyment, and besides- if you have enough money to play civ3 all day and you don't starve, why would you need more?

	19-08-2003 22:10									#29
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Late to comment, but I too am sorry to see ANY departures.

Yeah, I'm not around much, but always here in spirit, and always back if needed (not much needed during the day to day stuff...decisions about how to best save or recoup 2 extra shields next turn aren't my strong suit anyways, and I know it!).

Nonetheless, I cannot fathom the hostility from other teams. So, a bunch of guys got together from the strat forum to play....bighairyfriggindeal!....they say we're arrogant in their dealings with us.....I was unaware that dealing with us was a requirement for playing this game. If we are that offensive to their tender sensibilities, they have the option of turning the channel, non? Yes, we have the biggest economy on the friggin' planet.

That does not, however, mean that we're unbeatable. Sounds to me like the root of the problem does not lie with GS, and in fact, Beta's own post bears this out.

THEY wanted to beat GS. THEY.

I submit that the problem lies with the THEY part of that equation.

There was no need for GS to go to war with Vox. Likely, we'd have been quite content to let them sit there up north of us, and happily go about maximizing our economy and building our way to victory.

And we could have.

But oh no...THEY had to get their panties in a wad. THEY had to act to counter their own inferiority complex, and WE pay the price for it.

How CAN that be fun, in the long term?

-=Vel=-

	20-08-2003 06:13									#30
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Man, I friggin' LOVE you Vel!

Damn tootin'. Let's just kick everybody's ass and have done with it.

And Aeson and Nathan, I KNOW you are lurking... "Warriors, come out and play-ay!"

* Theseus wanders off muttering, "kill them all, damn bastards, mess with the strat forum, HA!, big mistake, mixed-unit Armies, that'll show'em..."