08-08-2003 11:14									#31
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler Define "country". What is the latest SCOTUS case law on sovereignty of US states? For the EU, I suggest you read McCormick, Questioning Sovereignty. As for those who define the EU as a "trade area", get a basic text book about EU law. Then you may have a clue what you are talking about. And "nation" is an outdated concept.

You DanS'sed it. Elaborate.

	08-08-2003 11:17									#32
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I did not edit that post.

	08-08-2003 11:33									#33
	Remove this text

DanS'ed as in "too brief to understand".

	08-08-2003 11:38									#34
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Agathon Economic activity determines political activity. Haven't you ever read Marx?

he was an idiot... any contemporary sociologist can tell you how flawed his 'theories' were

	08-08-2003 11:43									#35
	Put an end to popups!

Saras:

Ok, a little more:

Sovereignty is a fluffy concept, but usually associated with "country". So is Idoha sovereign? Or Germany?

The question for the EU is whether member states are still sovereign. The best description is split sovereignty.

The EU is a federal structure, not a free trade area, not just a costums union, not just an economic union.

Nation - nationalism and the nation state have seen their climax, wouldn't you agree?

	08-08-2003 11:46									#36
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker It will never happen, English are not going to join in the French-German Eurocom periphery The anti-US sentiment will simmer down when Bush is out of office and the global recession is over

Bravo!

	08-08-2003 11:49									#37
	Inflate your Upload Space

You have to understand this kind of discussion is NOT my strongest area, but:

quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler Saras: Ok, a little more: Sovereignty is a fluffy concept, but usually associated with "country". So is Idoha sovereign? Or Germany?

Idaho is not sovereign. It can't delcare war, make peace, annex Iowa. Germany, in theory, can.

quote: The question for the EU is whether member states are still sovereign. The best description is split sovereignty. The EU is a federal structure, not a free trade area, not just a costums union, not just an economic union. Nation - nationalism and the nation state have seen their climax, wouldn't you agree?

IMO, EU is integrated economically, but not politically, at least not to the same degree. You have to have some political integration to run all the common things in the EU. I just wish someone threw the French out (hint - CAP )

	08-08-2003 11:55									#38
	Full PM-box? Change here!

"It can't delcare war"

Ah, a little Schmitt.

"EU is integrated economically, but not politically, at least not to the same degree."

Depends. Don't let the Iraq squabbles blind you there. Eg the Cooperation in criminal law under title VI EUT is booming.

	08-08-2003 12:01									#39
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler "It can't delcare war" Ah, a little Schmitt. "EU is integrated economically, but not politically, at least not to the same degree." Depends. Don't let the Iraq squabbles blind you there. Eg the Cooperation in criminal law under title VI EUT is booming.

Who's Schmitt?

What do you mean by cooperation in criminal law? Like everyone extradites everyone?

	08-08-2003 12:01									#40
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Sava No... cultural and language differences are too great.

Greater than the differences between Utah and New York?

	08-08-2003 12:24									#41
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

"Who's Schmitt?"

Carl Schmitt, german... well, who knows what he really was, but he wrote on the issue.

"What do you mean by cooperation in criminal law? Like everyone extradites everyone?"

That. And european arrest warrant. And Harmonization of material criminal law. And common rules on asset seizures. The Schengen Acquis.

http://www.europa.eu.int/eur-lex/en...ister_1930.html

http://www.europa.eu.int/eur-lex/en...ister_1930.html

	08-08-2003 12:34									#42
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by Agathon ... Give it another 40 years or so and we'll see.

**tsk, tsk** You should know better, Agathon. In 40 years time, most of the planet will be trembling in the dark shadow of the hyperpower known as China.

Gatekeeper

	08-08-2003 12:42									#43
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler "What do you mean by cooperation in criminal law? Like everyone extradites everyone?" That. And european arrest warrant. And Harmonization of material criminal law. And common rules on asset seizures. The Schengen Acquis. http://www.europa.eu.int/eur-lex/en...ister_1930.html http://www.europa.eu.int/eur-lex/en...ister_1930.html

We (as well as probably everyone) already extradite to US and Russian and a bunch of other places, and have bilateral treaties etc. EU takes it just one small step further, no?

We even try to score brownie points with France:

http://fr.news.yahoo.com/030808/5/3c8n2.html

Officials are scrambling to draft a bilateral treaty to ship him out.

	08-08-2003 12:47									#44
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

"Nation" is not a word with an absolute definition; what we mean by nation today is a historical construct, and not a very old one. It could change. So, it seems to me that you have the question backward. It's not, "will the EU be a single nation" but, instead, will large nations come to resemble the EU? Given the increase in regionalism and the Republican agenda of devolution in the US; given a similar regionalism in Canada; given China's experimentation with semi-autonomous zones like Shanghai and Hong Kong, it seems to me that the EU, whatever it is, may represent a future organizational model.

	08-08-2003 12:49									#45
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Sava I can guarantee you the Balkan states will not sign on. And a true EU would need all of Europe.

You mean you're living not in the true United States of America, because they don't cover all of America?

On topic: It will happen, but in small steps and it will take a very long time. It may begin with a loose confederation of just a few countries, let's call it core Europe. With the time, and over a large amount of political skirmishes and diskussions (I know thee, Europe), the bonds will tighten. Others will eventually join, even the Britons, although without doubt they will be the last and join kicking and screaming and only because they otherwise would be dwarfed and "milled" between Europe and America. Others, like the Balkan states, may decide not to join, so what? They'll be our Mexico then, no big deal. And if the Finns don't join, they will be our Canada.

	08-08-2003 12:49									#46
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

http://www.merdeinfrance.blogspot.com/

Some "info" in English on Cantat

	08-08-2003 12:53									#47
	Inflate your Upload Space

england will never surrender to brussels

	08-08-2003 13:21									#48
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Saras We (as well as probably everyone) already extradite to US and Russian and a bunch of other places, and have bilateral treaties etc. EU takes it just one small step further, no?

It provides common rules for extradition, but that is just one aspect of the Acquis in that area.

	08-08-2003 13:25									#49
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly it seems to me that the EU, whatever it is, may represent a future organizational model.

Yes, the nation state sucked up all authority to a central level. We are now seeing a reversal, in a way it's a return to a multilevel system of local, regional, national, supranational and international systems.

The EU is a new federal system that is less centralized than the classic federal state, but goes beyond the confederation. To some extent similar models have been there before, the Deutscher Bund from 1815-1866, or the US before the civil war. They became nation states eventually, but I don't see that road for the EU.

	08-08-2003 13:27									#50
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler The EU is a new federal system that is less centralized than the classic federal state, but goes beyond the confederation. To some extent similar models have been there before, the Deutscher Bund from 1815-1866, or the US before the civil war. They became nation states eventually, but I don't see that road for the EU.

One has to play Europa Universalis for just a little time to see that there is no way, on a realistic diffuculty level, that Germany, France and UK can be one nation-state

	08-08-2003 13:33									#51
	Suffering from ads?

Yeah, but we'd need time travel for that.

	08-08-2003 14:42									#52
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I think the EU will have to go through what we went through 140 years ago in order to form a Nation. Our Civil War forged a Nation out of an alliance of States. Europe will need to undergo just some cataclismic event in order to truly unite it. I don't forsee that happening any time soon as I see no major regional division of interests or philosophies that would trigger a civil war.

The one possible cause for a civil war would be one or more of the states going communist.

	08-08-2003 14:53									#53
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Ned I see no major regional division of interests or philosophies that would trigger a civil war.

Many would consider this situation as a solid ground to unite, but for Ned it is an obstacle.

	08-08-2003 15:34									#54
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Exactly why wouldn't the Balkan states join? AFAIK Slovenia and Croatia already have candidate status (not sure about Bosnia or Macedonia).

	08-08-2003 17:25									#55
	Got spare money?

Kramerman:

quote: he was an idiot... any contemporary sociologist can tell you how flawed his 'theories' were

Actually, together with Max Weber and Emile Durkheim, he is the person whose theories we most saw in our sociology course... And I happen to know in other countries there is also a strong attention for Marx' theories. The details and final conclusions of his theory may be wrong or inaccurate, but the basic insights on which he builds them are still valid now. For example conflict sociology, or the insight that economics influence culture and politics.

Ned:

quote: Europe will need to undergo just some cataclismic event in order to truly unite it.

I agree. Therefore I suggest the USA to declare war on the EU, so we can kick your but and unite in the process.

	08-08-2003 17:29									#56
	Increase Your PM Length

The EU is best seen as an intermediate step. Sure, it is bringing economic union, a large degree of legal and border policing co-operation but not political union. The problem is that the national politicians in all the major EU countries don't want to give up the pretence of having some power so they will desperately hang on to foreign policy.

Within the next 10-15 years there will not be a single EU state. In the longer term demographic and economic pressures may well make the present, generally socialist, policies unsustainable (= unaffordable) and a new political approach, possibly a new pan-national political party taking power in several countries could bring change leading to a true single state.

	08-08-2003 18:34									#57
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by CerberusIV The EU is best seen as an intermediate step.

Intermediate and original; this was never done before.

One can expect that there will be crisis important enough to make all Europeans feel they have something to protect; this would help building a serious rapid deployment force, and formulate the beginning of a common foreign policy.

For instance, we have small pieces of land all over the world, populated by french citizens, and most with present or future strategic value; Europeans will have to decide if they back the French in the defense of this territories.

	08-08-2003 18:46									#58
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler Define "country". What is the latest SCOTUS case law on sovereignty of US states? For the EU, I suggest you read McCormick, Questioning Sovereignty. As for those who define the EU as a "trade area", get a basic text book about EU law. Then you may have a clue what you are talking about. And "nation" is an outdated concept.

Dance puppet! Dance!

	08-08-2003 18:49									#59
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I like dancing on your ignorance.

	08-08-2003 19:06									#60
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler Define "country".

A nation or State.

quote: For the EU, I suggest you read McCormick, Questioning Sovereignty.

Why don't we summarize it here rather than giving out homework assignments while I'm on summer break, Teach?

quote: And "nation" is an outdated concept.

Outmoded by what?