24-08-2003 20:38									#31
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by skywalker It shouldn't be that way though. Especially for food. Look at it this way: In the US there are many industrial cities on the east coast. Most of the entire region is given over to industry, not agriculture. On its own, it doesn't produce enough food to support itself and its huge industrial mass. However, with food from other areas, especially the Great Plains, the breadbasket of the US, it can support that population and hence its industrial power.

hi ,

, agreed maybe we should have the food trade from civ II again , aldo way more improved , ......

have a nice day

	26-08-2003 02:54									#32
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Vince278 I apologize. I should not have used our two letter state postal codes in an international forum where some may not be familiar with their usage.

Donīt worry. Itīs always fine to learn new things

	26-08-2003 05:11									#33
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

I think the reason you can't move food is for balance reasons. Otherwise just build a city with mountains completely filling the radius and you have insta 150 production from the city.

We all know what big producers those Himilayan cities are.

	26-08-2003 05:35									#34
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

You're right, Trip, but there are OTHER ways it could be balanced!

1) Only cities connected to your via the capital can get food transfers.

2) Food transfer would only be allowed with the APPROPRIATE tech-something in the Mid to late Middle Ages, for instance.

3) Limits on the amount of food an individual city can transfer and/or recieve!

4) Limit the number of tiles between transfering cities!

This way, you would still need at least SOME food producing capacity for that city, of it's own-at least early in the game!! Also, you will need low production "bread Basket" cities to compensate for the type of cities you just mentioned!! Yes, it could still become exploited or unbalanced-but that can be said for a number of features already existing in the game !!

	26-08-2003 18:21									#35
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Trip I think the reason you can't move food is for balance reasons. Otherwise just build a city with mountains completely filling the radius and you have insta 150 production from the city. We all know what big producers those Himilayan cities are.

Actually, look at it this way. If you build mines in those mountains, you are going to hire people to work in them. They will have to live in the city. The city will then import food. If you build LOTS of mines, you'll have a huge population and a huge food import.

	27-08-2003 02:27									#36
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Cities in the civ universe or more like regional administrive centers. Unless your dealling with US Civil War or Revolutionary War scenario, you wouldn't found cities in both Washington, DC and Baltimore, Maryland, but would just found the one in DC and let it grow to evenually cover Baltimore.

Yes, large areas of the North East produce some sort of food. Varies by area including: graneries, fisheries, game. In that region, locally grown is usually insufficent to feed the population though, and in almost all areas of the US, including the midwest there's some importing of food from other regions to balance out dietary diets. (For instance, orange trees don't do well in the midwest; too cold in the winter.)

For that matter, England still has some large agricultrual areas, but they have to import food as well.

	27-08-2003 13:48									#37
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

With everyone importing it makes me wonder - Where is all of the food really coming from?

	27-08-2003 17:00									#38
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Vince278, it comes from countries like Argentina (this country helped Spain a lot in the 50īs whenever there was shortage of grain). Lots of African and Asian countries also have food excess, but they canīt sell it to rich countries īcause these subsidy their own farmers! In the European Union there is a huge deal of money spent on keeping the farmers working just to keep them from extinction, and the same happens in the USA: These countries do have food excess in spite of spending much more money than if they just bought that food to poor countries.
Seems like they enjoy saying they have farmers just for having them, as many regions would bankrupt if farming became a non-profitable activity.

	27-08-2003 18:20									#39
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

The US has a food surplus because of our huge agricultural regions.

	28-08-2003 04:56									#40
	Inflate your Upload Space

...subsidied in a great part by the State, thus preventing wealth from going to poor countries. The same happens in the EU.

	28-08-2003 09:42									#41
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Kaiser Wilhem ...subsidied in a great part by the State, thus preventing wealth from going to poor countries.

I don't get the connection between the two.

	29-08-2003 05:42									#42
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Kaiser: lame troll, and it belongs in the OT. Don't feel too special about yourself.

	29-08-2003 07:25									#43
	Remove this text

Skywalker, it wasn't a troll. It was a valid point which came up in the course of a civ conversation.

quote: Originally posted by Vince278 I don't get the connection between the two.

Industrialized countries spend US$300 billion a year subsidizing their farmers to keep them in business. Consequently, Third World farmers (who have a comparative advantage in many agro products) can't sell their produce profitably to the first world. In fact many developing countries import food from the First World because it's cheaper, but this puts their own farmers out of business.



As for food/shield transfer, I don't think it will work in civ3. Civ would have to convert to a more CTP-like system.

	29-08-2003 08:27									#44
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I would think that goods from the third world are cheaper since production costs and labor are cheaper. Also, nobody subsidizes a wider range of products than some EU countries. I suppose thats how trade wars get started.
I agree this subtopic is OT as well but in an attempt to bring it back would (or should) it be possible to model subsidizing and trade wars in Civ? I think it could be done if they would include true stock markets (like the Bourse and Wall Street) in the game (ie trading luxuries and resources on the open market). That would open up a whole new level of strategic possibilities.

	30-08-2003 02:10									#45
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Vince278 would (or should) it be possible to model subsidizing and trade wars in Civ? I think it could be done if they would include true stock markets (like the Bourse and Wall Street) in the game (ie trading luxuries and resources on the open market). That would open up a whole new level of strategic possibilities.

It would open up new possibilities but I don't think it can be modelled in the current Civ game. Currently, all business is basically state controlled and there's no role for "real" stock markets.

	30-08-2003 10:38									#46
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Defcon5 It would open up new possibilities but I don't think it can be modelled in the current Civ game. Currently, all business is basically state controlled and there's no role for "real" stock markets.

Don't know if I'd agree with that (at least in America). There's a big difference between state regulated and state controlled. Some may argue that many large corporations are controlling the state.

	30-08-2003 11:04									#47
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Vince278 Don't know if I'd agree with that (at least in America). There's a big difference between state regulated and state controlled. Some may argue that many large corporations are controlling the state.

Oh, I just ment in Civ3 the economy seems state run, definently not in the US in real life.

	30-08-2003 17:40									#48
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Lots of Politics on this thread...

well you should all be aware that our Govt is forced to dump vaste amounts of whaet in the ocean when we have bumper crops... this is by the UN.... and others bloody politics


I think that Civ should aloow for the trading of food between cities of a civ... and also at nation level...

	31-08-2003 09:10									#49
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Paddy the Scot well you should all be aware that our Govt is forced to dump vaste amounts of whaet in the ocean when we have bumper crops... this is by the UN.... and others bloody politics.

I seriously doubt that. But if it were really true it would be sad to think the government would rather dump the grain than feed the poor in the region.

	31-08-2003 16:03									#50
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Paddy the Scot Lots of Politics on this thread... well you should all be aware that our Govt is forced to dump vaste amounts of whaet in the ocean when we have bumper crops... this is by the UN.... and others bloody politics I think that Civ should aloow for the trading of food between cities of a civ... and also at nation level...

hi ,

that has been asked before , lets hope we get it with c3c

as for the politics , dont worry about it , .....

have a nice day

	31-08-2003 18:31									#51
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

The conversation here has PROVED it was a troll. Not a single post after mine belonged anywhere but the OT (except for the ones saying there was lots of politics )

	02-09-2003 21:02									#52
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

That's one factor that certaintely doesn't hurt, but I think the main reason for our huge agricultural surplus fact that US farmers are the most industrialized farmers in the world.

Yes, we have significant farm subsidities in the US, but the EU farmers receive even larger ones.

Neither the US nor EUs policies on this are likely to change any time soon.

quote: Originally posted by skywalker The US has a food surplus because of our huge agricultural regions.

	03-09-2003 00:46									#53
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by skywalker Actually, look at it this way. If you build mines in those mountains, you are going to hire people to work in them. They will have to live in the city. The city will then import food. If you build LOTS of mines, you'll have a huge population and a huge food import.

And where you gonna build this huge city now? What side of what mountain? There'd be too many deaths from avalaches, quakes, etc.

Plus have you tried moving food into a place like the himalyas? Its not possible on a large scale without massive money...

And yea it would be unbalancing unless you had to pay for the trade routes you set up...and one to the Himulas would be so expensive it'd be cheaper to buy the shields.

	03-09-2003 05:54									#54
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by skywalker Kaiser: lame troll, and it belongs in the OT. Don't feel too special about yourself.

Take it easy. Iīm sorry, I knew that post was a little bit laconic and perhaps it souldnīt be there... the discussion was getting repetitive and I just made it worse. Btw, can anyone explain me the meaning of trolling?
Sorry if I annoyed anyone.

	03-09-2003 23:18									#55
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by Vince278 With everyone importing it makes me wonder - Where is all of the food really coming from?

The United States produces enough food to feed the world (times 3!)

	04-09-2003 00:03									#56
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Lord God Jinnai And where you gonna build this huge city now? What side of what mountain? There'd be too many deaths from avalaches, quakes, etc. Plus have you tried moving food into a place like the himalyas? Its not possible on a large scale without massive money... And yea it would be unbalancing unless you had to pay for the trade routes you set up...and one to the Himulas would be so expensive it'd be cheaper to buy the shields.

Amid all the political arguing I think this quote above is a little gem of an idea.

The cost of importing the food is prohibitive in some areas. A way to model that in CIV-land would be to put some sort of "tax" based on how tough the roads are leading to your city. If you're in the mountains, it would cost gold to suppliment your food with excess from another city.

Another way to model the mountainous cities would be a "miner" worker, who could two squares. The catch is that 50% of the shields are distributed to other cities, 10% is lost to overhead, and the city itself only gets 40% of the shields. If the AI knew how to use them correctly you would get pretty common sense situation where a small town in the mountains does the mining and a factor somewhere else does the production.

This would also add strategy to the game since you could choose to attact a mining town or a producing town to the same effect.

	04-09-2003 06:18									#57
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Louis XXIV The United States produces enough food to feed the world (times 3!)

Aaah. Then the rest of the world is being protectionist to protect their own financial interests even if their own people are going hungry?

	04-09-2003 06:54									#58
	Get a bigger avatar today!

If you say so

	04-09-2003 11:27									#59
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Louis XXIV The United States produces enough food to feed the world (times 3!)

Where did you find that stat?

	04-09-2003 12:39									#60
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by statusperfect Where did you find that stat?

McDonald's? (Over 99 Billion sold )