11-08-2003 13:45									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Henrik quote: Originally posted by Azazel My pov: It is not, but it should be.

	11-08-2003 13:47									#32
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If you're libertarian, the US is socialist, too.

	11-08-2003 13:49									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel If you're libertarian, the US is socialist, too.

haha true. I don't think the US is the topic right now though.

	11-08-2003 13:51									#34
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The point was that the social policies of member states have not made EU policies "socialist". Also, your examples are rather weak.

"the massive amounts of taxation."

Not so much different from say the US when adjusted for tax subsidies and double taxation. Or is the US socialist, too, in your opinion?

" the massive amts of subsidies"

Ever heard of EU state aid law? The subsidies covered by that policy fell from 1.5 to 1 % of GDP over the last 10 years. EU agriculture subsidies are about as bad as those in the US.

"socialized healthcare"

AFAIK that's only the UK.

"large welfare programs"

Welfare? What exactly?

"uber powerful unions"

Their power varies a lot. One aspect is that there is no closed shop in most countries - not sure whether the UK still has it.

	11-08-2003 13:54									#35
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I was suprised by Colon, when he said that France had one of the lowest unionisation rates in the industrialised world.

	11-08-2003 13:55									#36
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler The point was that the social policies of member states have not made EU policies "socialist". Also, your examples are rather weak. "the massive amounts of taxation." Not so much different from say the US when adjusted for tax subsidies and double taxation. Or is the US socialist, too, in your opinion? " the massive amts of subsidies" Ever heard of EU state aid law? The subsidies covered by that policy fell from 1.5 to 1 % of GDP over the last 10 years. EU agriculture subsidies are about as bad as those in the US. "socialized healthcare" AFAIK that's only the UK. "large welfare programs" Welfare? What exactly? "uber powerful unions" Their power varies a lot. One aspect is that there is no closed shop in most countries - not sure whether the UK still has it.

yes the US is pretty socialist. tho less so than europe. and its completely laffable that europe is socialist yet u maintain the EU isnt YET u maintain that the EU has the same economic control as the federal gov't.

ur a joke man.

	11-08-2003 13:59									#37
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"yes the US is pretty socialist"

Ok, so your definition of "socialism" is so wide that it means nothing. Ok.

"and its completely laffable that europe is socialist yet u maintain the EU isnt YET u maintain that the EU has the same economic control as the federal gov't."

Can anyone translate this, please?

"ur a joke man"

You are a little confused, it seems.

	11-08-2003 14:03									#38
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler "yes the US is pretty socialist" Ok, so your definition of "socialism" is so wide that it means nothing. Ok. "and its completely laffable that europe is socialist yet u maintain the EU isnt YET u maintain that the EU has the same economic control as the federal gov't." Can anyone translate this, please? "ur a joke man" You are a little confused, it seems.

I'll talk slow. u agree europe is socialist. yet u maintain the eu isnt. and u also maintain that the EU has the same economic control over europe that the US federal gov't has. this is illogical captain.

its also funny that just cuz I think taking half(the US) or over half(europe) of someone's tax money constitutes "pretty socialist" that my definition is "too vague." honestly u r one of the more inept ppl on this forum.

	11-08-2003 14:06									#39
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"u agree europe is socialist"

You fail reading comprehension. You replace social with socialist.

"u also maintain that the EU has the same economic control over europe that the US federal gov't has"

You fail reading comprehension again. You replace power with control.

"its also funny that just cuz I think taking half(the US) or over half(europe) of someone's tax money"

Who takes half of the tax money?

"honestly u r one of the more inept ppl on this forum."

Says the person who can't even properly structure a simple sentence.

	11-08-2003 14:07									#40
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler "u agree europe is socialist" You fail reading comprehension. You replace social with socialist. "u also maintain that the EU has the same economic control over europe that the US federal gov't has" You replaced its also funny that just cuz I think taking half(the US) or over half(europe) of someone's tax money constitutes "pretty socialist" that my definition is "too vague." honestly u r one of the more inept ppl on this forum.

wutever man. sure throw "u can't read" or wutever inane crap u want.

	11-08-2003 14:16									#41
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Bambirbyja kirgudu all over again.

	11-08-2003 14:18									#42
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yah I'm just going to stop. I can feel myself getting sucked in by pure antagonism. find another hobby hersho

	11-08-2003 14:19									#43
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Poor sob.

But it's off-topic anyway.

	11-08-2003 15:20									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Frozzy The EU only aids those poor nations, and is a hinderance to economic powers (e.g. Britain).

Germany, France all get hindered by the EU. Indeed!

ata

	11-08-2003 15:27									#45
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No, the European Union isn't socialist. The stability goals of the EMU prevent the very possibility of just legislation or fighting unemployment effectively. The EU is a major sponsor of the third-world-crippling GATS agreement and has consistently pushed for "free" trade and globalisation while maintaining enormous trade barriers to the outside world. The EU sponsors, on a large scale, corporations and mass farmers, it's deeply undemocratic and run by a cabal of corporate-sponsored comissioners, it's actively deregulatory and structurally neoliberal.

Which is why I'm for it turning into a superstate.

Does that sound like a contradiction? I believe that the citizens of the EU need to grab hold of the power while there's still a chance and build real democracy from below. I believe the only way we can safeguard the future of europe from the militarists and right-wingers is if we go in and fight now, left-wingers all over Europe working in solidarity to make the EU something we can stand for. I believe there are many positive things with the EU - the subsidiarity principle, the minority policy, the potential for getting at eco-criminals and tax evaders - and that we're inextricably stuck in it anyway, and that it's our duty to turn it into a real democratic unit.

If you read swedish you might be interested in the organisation I'm currently working with: http://www.vansterforemu.se/

	11-08-2003 15:55									#46
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did anyone else find that snapcase post puke inducing?

'[the EU is] activly deregulatory'

tell that to any british business and let me know what the reply is

	11-08-2003 15:58									#47
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I knew that the opposite stereotype would come up too.

	11-08-2003 16:20									#48
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I see, EU threads become increasingly popular here now

	11-08-2003 16:30									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Buck Birdseed If you read swedish you might be interested in the organisation I'm currently working with: http://www.vansterforemu.se/

I didn't know there was any such organization

	11-08-2003 17:21									#50
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LOOK! UP In THE SKY! It's a bird! It's a plane! No, it's supersta.......no wait, it's an American F-15.

	11-08-2003 17:45									#51
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Getting back to where this started, is the EU a superstate? No.

Reason - a state is generally defined as a political entity with control over its foreign and defence policies. Those areas still (largely) rest with the national governments within the EU and will continue to do so under the new constitution.

Will the EU become a superstate? Probably.

The world is an increasingly small place with competition for resources. The economic and political muscle of a larger grouping compared to an individual state makes it more likely that europe's citizens (aka voters) will get a proportionately larger share of those resources than, say, people in africa. The present situation isn't yet bad enough to get people to vote for a more centralised, unified EU but it will become so.

The present levels of expenditure on "socialist" policies are beginning to come to an end. The pensions crisis in many EU countries, although largely manufactured in the UK case, highlights the increasing costs due to an ageing population and the doubts about how long these policies can be supported by the various national governments.

The CAP will be dead within a decade simply because fewer and fewer EU member states, especially the newer ones, are going to get any real benefit from it compared to the cost. The whole GM versus organic issue will drive this faster to its conclusion.

	11-08-2003 18:43									#52
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I hope for a humble, internationalist, unmilitarist EU, not a half-hearted parody of the US. As for socialism, well, the EU is capitalist to the core, and that's unlikely to change.