12-08-2003 00:08									#1
	An AU idea Got spare money?

Hello All,

This is my first post to Apolyton. I've been lurking here for about a year (maybe more, hard to remember), sucking up all the collective wisdom.

I've been increasingly impressed with the AU process and AU mod. I've played a couple of the AU scenarios, and a few other regular games with the AU mod.

My idea came about because I was noticing a pretty standard trend in games, particularly at the higher levels (Emporer and Deity). Basically, you spend the ancient era behind, and either desperately trade/ extort techs from the AI or you build the GL and hoard cash. At a certain point, usually after becoming a Republic, you trigger your Golden Age, which catapults you into contention, allowing you to either crush your enemies or develop a dominant world position via building, etc.

Anyway, now that we have a new dean of AU, may I be so bold as to suggest a new challenge for Nuclear Master to work into a scenario? In honor of certain classic Poly threads, I call it "The Power of the Golden Age." And what better way to appreciate the power of the age than to NEVER HAVE ONE.

The challenge, then, is to win (on whatever level you choose) without ever triggering your Golden Age. This has two major impacts:

1. No using your UU (unless you're Korea). That, in itself, is tough enough, but also realize that you can not build the unit your UU replaces. Thus, the Ottomans not only can't build siphai, but they're stuck with knights until the arrival of tanks. That's a long time to survive with a substandard unit.

2. You need to be extraordinarily careful about what Wonders you build or acquire. If, for example, you're the Egyptians, you obviously can not build the Pyramids. However, if you should seize the city that has the Pyramids, you will have to choose to either raze the city or you could NEVER build another wonder (since doing so will also trigger the Golden Age).

As far as I know, this challenge has never been raised before (though I could have missed it, I guess). Any thoughts?

	12-08-2003 01:32									#2
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I think this could be interesting, but it would need some means of preventing the normal triggers. It would be too big of pain to not trigger it with a wonder of some other means. I mean it may be possible, but I have triggered them by accident many times. So if the scenario could be created with no GA allowed or set to something safe, such as SDI built.......

	12-08-2003 01:55									#3
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I am the Dean but not the creator of the AU courses. It would be possible I guess but I dont know... Maybe if we take out GA's if that's possible and UU's.

	12-08-2003 04:11									#4
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 I think this could be interesting, but it would need some means of preventing the normal triggers. It would be too big of pain to not trigger it with a wonder of some other means. I mean it may be possible, but I have triggered them by accident many times. So if the scenario could be created with no GA allowed or set to something safe, such as SDI built.......

I'm not sure it would be THAT huge a deal to avoid triggering it. In essence, you would be required to pick which of your two traits to NOT have a Wonder for. I am currently testing this idea out by playing the Celts. I have decided that I will not own any religious wonders, which is not a big deal for me, since Sistine's is the only religious wonder I ever both to build. The only downside will be that I'll need to raze any city that develops Pyramids, Oracle or Colossus.

IMO, the real challenge will be not having the UU or the unit it replaces AND making up for the loss of the productivity. Keep in mind that, for some civs (Americans), you may never need the UU anyway, if you win quickly enough.

BTW, Nuclear Master, my apologies. I don't know how I got it into my head that you were responsible for developing the scenarios. My brain is clearly out to lunch.

	12-08-2003 04:20									#5
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Well dont worry about it. You are new and I am the first Dean so alot is in anarchy right now.

Well you should keep this idea steady and work out more details on it now. As far as I know Theseus is working on some intro courses for new players and for practice on harder difficulty levels.

	12-08-2003 06:09									#6
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The problem is I don't think you would really learn anything out of it. The AU games are meant to make you hone in on a specific strategy or style, and for you to learn something. I don't think this would really make you learn anything, it is just taking away an advantage. And, golden ages are realistic in the first place. It gives the game more personality, you can refer to the First Golden Age when talking about your game.

	12-08-2003 06:36									#7
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Now that you mention first GA, I recall the first days the game came out it was possible to have two GA's.

Anyway I agree it may be a good idea for fun, but may not work well with AU.

I also wonder if capturing a wonder is going to trigger a GA, not sure.

	12-08-2003 10:19									#8
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I agree that this would make for an interesting AU course.

Unless playing the Aztecs, the human player can usually set up his or her GA in such a way that completely outclasses how the AI does it. My guess is that a majority of AI GAs are wasted, either due to bad tile improvements and/or wrong government. Contrast this to the extreme care we all put into our GAs, and how much mileage we get out of them, so to speak.

So, from the perspective of "evening out the playing field", this could definitely be a challenge.

It would, as mentioned, also be a challenge not to win battles with your UU or build the appropriate Wonders. Concerning Wonders, remember that it triggers based on the Wonders you already control, meaning it may be necessary to destroy older Wonders to make way for new ones. For intance, if you were playing the Persians and controlled a city with the Pyramids, you might have to disband it before you build the Theory of Evolution (and then disband that one when you build the Hoover Dam!). As for UUs, I could see a civ like Spain being interesting to play in such a scenario.

In short, nice idea Tall Stranger (and welcome)!


Dominae

	12-08-2003 10:23									#9
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I think something more has to be added to it.

	12-08-2003 10:29									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Nuclear Master I think something more has to be added to it.

Remember that AU courses have always been more or less like "stock Civ3", with only one rule/edict per scenario. For example, "never sign a Peace treaty", "never build a military unit", "go to war at each military 'phase' of the game", "switch to Communism when it becomes available", "achieve UP", "make the most of your GA", etc. Such rules, although simple, often have drastic implications in gameplay. The "no GA" rule would be equally drastic, especially if the tribe is wisely selected.

So, I do not think anything more needs to be added to this idea to make it a full-fledged AU course.


Dominae

	12-08-2003 10:38									#11
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But I dont see how you learn much from it. You can always increase the difficulty through the editors.

	12-08-2003 18:46									#12
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It teaches you to manage the game even closer...

I don't see how it is any less educational than "Switch to Communism", or similar rules.

	12-08-2003 18:47									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Nuclear Master But I dont see how you learn much from it. You can always increase the difficulty through the editors.

I have to disagree on two counts here. First off, while I'm not an expert on the AU, according to the AU History thread one of the key goals is to give the player more strategic choices. Deliberately avoiding a Golden Age forces players to make extremely difficult choices, regardless of whether you play for a dip, cultural, dom or conquest victory. I'll explain my thinking on this in a second, but in this regard, it's not significantly different than the OCC game in terms of placing limits on what the player can do.

Second, I think players can learn a lot from this scenario. As I mentioned above, most players use the GA to establish their power base from which to dominate the mid-to-late game. While I rarely play builder type games, when I do, I use the GA to crank out Universities, Cathedrals, Marketplaces, Factories (if the GA is that late), Wonders, etc. which gives me the economic, cultural and scientific base to win. My reading of other builders here on Apolyton indicate that they do the same thing. For warmongering, which I generally prefer, I use the GA to crank out units, "cry havoc and let slip the dogs of war."

With that in mind, think about what you'd do if you couldn't build that base of power quickly. If you're a builder, it may force you to prioritize your building in a way you are not accustomed to. If you can't build everything in a relative short period of time, do you first go for Marketplaces (lower cost to build, more cash), Cathedrals (higher cost to build, happiness and culture) or Universities (higher cost to build, science and culture)? If you're a warmonger, you will not be able (especially at the higher levels) to simply outproduce the AI and crush them with SOD. (It's hard to lose when you're cranking out Siphai every 2 turns.) You'll probably need to fight much more limited wars, and oscillate between adversaries, which will complicate your diplomatic efforts. In addition, since you can't build either the UU (well you can build it, but can't use it) or the unit it replaces, this game may force warmongers NOT to fight, at least for a while, since they'll be stuck with units that are weaker than the AIs.

Finally, WRT wonders, I'm fairly certain that you can't trigger a GA by capturing wonders, only by building them. I'm not sure, however, that you can destroy them (I've never tried). My assumption was the only way to destroy a wonder was to destroy the city it is in. That's a big price to pay. Imagine having to disband a size 12 city with ToE just so you can build Hoover's in another city. This game will force you to decide which Wonders are key for your game and which are "gravy."

In short, I think this would make for an interesting challenge and is very much in the spirit of AU (as I understand it). I'd appreciate anyone's thoughts on this.

	12-08-2003 19:14									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Nuclear Master But I dont see how you learn much from it. You can always increase the difficulty through the editors.

Not to sound condescending, but how many of the AU courses have you participated in, Nuclear Master?

If you look back, you could make the same point about the other AU courses. "Island Hopping", "The Power of Gold", "The Power of Expansionist", "Celtic Glory" are all scholastic in very subtle ways. I think the idea is not so much to teach people how to play Civ3, but to encourage them to think about the game as they play it. This results in learning without the feeling of actually doing any work. Relatively simple scenarios make this happen.

I personally feel that a game without GAs would be challenging and therefore interesting. Definitely not on the level of "Total War", but who wants to go there again!?


Dominae

	12-08-2003 19:17									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Tall Stranger Finally, WRT wonders, I'm fairly certain that you can't trigger a GA by capturing wonders, only by building them. I'm not sure, however, that you can destroy them (I've never tried). My assumption was the only way to destroy a wonder was to destroy the city it is in. That's a big price to pay. Imagine having to disband a size 12 city with ToE just so you can build Hoover's in another city. This game will force you to decide which Wonders are key for your game and which are "gravy."

You cannot trigger a Golden Age by capturing a Wonder. However, Wonders you have captured count toward determining if you trigger a GA with the next Wonder you build.

So, for example, if you're playing the Persians and you capture the Pyramids (from, say, the Egyptians), then later decide to build the Theory of Evolution yourself, you would have to destroy the city in which the Pyramids resides (since Pyramids is Industrial and Theory of Evolution is Scientific). Disbanding or giving away a city is the only way of getting rid of a Wonder.


Dominae

	12-08-2003 19:59									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae You cannot trigger a Golden Age by capturing a Wonder. However, Wonders you have captured count toward determining if you trigger a GA with the next Wonder you build. So, for example, if you're playing the Persians and you capture the Pyramids (from, say, the Egyptians), then later decide to build the Theory of Evolution yourself, you would have to destroy the city in which the Pyramids resides (since Pyramids is Industrial and Theory of Evolution is Scientific). Disbanding or giving away a city is the only way of getting rid of a Wonder.

OK, that's what I had assumed (I think I ever remember a thread here about this from a while back). The likely impact of this, in my view, is that players will be forced to either a) control their wonder building by not building wonders related to one of their civ traits and by not warmongering; b) to stop building wonders once they own a wonder for each civ trait ; or c) give away or disband cities with wonders. Would be interesting to see which choice people make, and makes my point that the game would be about setting priorities.

	12-08-2003 20:40									#17
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Hmm...

I'd want to use a civ with traits that denied me the fewest important wonders...

I wonder... China? Avoid GW, Sun Tzu & Leos? If you're not going to go on a Rider blitz, Leos isn't all that important. Sun Tzu kinda hurts, but so be it. The GW is garbage.

This would allow me to build/capture most of the wonders I want, and have a civ with pretty strong traits to boot.

Trouble is, the more I think about it, the idea of avoiding wonders & a GA is probably more than I could bear. I see the educational value, sure, but I dunno if I'd have fun.

-Arrian

	12-08-2003 21:47									#18
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Could be very interesting having to refrain from controlling certain wonders.

Catt

	13-08-2003 01:06									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Hmm... I'd want to use a civ with traits that denied me the fewest important wonders... I wonder... China? Avoid GW, Sun Tzu & Leos? If you're not going to go on a Rider blitz, Leos isn't all that important. Sun Tzu kinda hurts, but so be it. The GW is garbage. This would allow me to build/capture most of the wonders I want, and have a civ with pretty strong traits to boot.

But, if I'm not mistaken, you could build Leo's or Sun Tzu's, provided you did not also build HG, Pyramids or Hoover. You also could not build Manhattan. In my view, this raises the difficulty, but does not affect game play that much. Remember, you could still seize these wonders, provided you never again built ANY wonder.

Again, my view is that the biggest hurdle here would be the loss of unit and loss of the added productivity. For China, it means living with Horsemen (or resorting to Longbowman) as your primary attack option until you can get Cavalry. Doing so will prove very challenging, and may force certain warmongering types (not naming any names!) to adjust their strategy.

quote: Trouble is, the more I think about it, the idea of avoiding wonders & a GA is probably more than I could bear. I see the educational value, sure, but I dunno if I'd have fun.

Well, aren't we picky?! You think this GAME is about FUN?!!! But seriously, I think this would be challenging (though not nearly as hard as either the Eternal War Scenario or OCC) and fun. Obviously, others may have different opinions.

	14-08-2003 06:19									#20
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I like it... I've played games where I've purposefully held off on my GA, of course (and thus denying the benefit of a decent UU, so that lesson I think has been learned), but even when I've had very late GAs I have definitely seen them as game breakers.

I'm with NM, however, this needs just a touch more, je ne sais quois...

Perhaps the Power of Money? Play commercial, no GA, but look for that power boost that comes from a) size, b) the Medieval and Industrial buildings, and finally c) those two on top of a properly developed early empire (roads, rivers, gold, etc.), and d) astute trading?

Played right, is that as powerful as a GA?

My answer is a resounding yes.

	14-08-2003 08:18									#21
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I've played games unintentionally missing the GA. Usually with the Egyptians, since I hate early golden ages. But there are many civs that can live without their UU. Anyone with swordsman UU, Egypt, England, France, America, Babylon, Korea and Scandinavia can all manage it without changing game style too much.

	14-08-2003 08:22									#22
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Greece?

	14-08-2003 14:59									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Catt Could be very interesting having to refrain from controlling certain wonders. Catt

Don't make this proposal to Arrian. He'd have a fit.

Yep, this would be interesting for a future AU game.