12-08-2003 06:23									#1
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Face it, the new con is getting old

I would like to see another constitution, one with what I call "simplified participation". This demogame is boring. We want excitement. This can be created a number of ways, some of which are bad and some of which are good.

I know there was an attempt to get another con for the last game, but it failed (not sure where, must go read the thread...) But I would really like this to happen.

ie: I miss the SPDG glory days I am beginning to think now that that was more interesting than the PTWDGs for one reason - everybody was on the same team.

	12-08-2003 07:06									#2
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Proposal:

Everyone's allowed six bullets, and each member is alloted five lives.................

	12-08-2003 07:37									#3
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Personally I prefer it withour the rigmarole of a Constitution and I blame the Con we had for all our problems last game, but if people want...

IF you ahve any ideas, bring them here - I will find a copy of the old NewCon we used and put it here so you can see the monstrosity we need to change.

	12-08-2003 07:39									#4
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I dont think we should get a new constitution. Do we have enough people to fill all the position in the court?

	12-08-2003 08:20									#5
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quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt Personally I prefer it withour the rigmarole of a Constitution and I blame the Con we had for all our problems last game, but if people want... IF you ahve any ideas, bring them here - I will find a copy of the old NewCon we used and put it here so you can see the monstrosity we need to change.

What problems are you thinking of? It was much more interesting last game, where the constitution played a much bigger role. Anyways, we are still using the newcon, yes?

I'll see what I can make tommorrow. I hope to take all the constitutions together to see what I can come up with.

	12-08-2003 10:21									#6
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The old con should work perfectly fine for a small group or a large group. It was reasonably specific about things people tended to argue about and left open issues that can be left open (such as how big each of the ministries would be, etc.).

To be honest, the con is not the reason for what squabbles existed. As Jefferson pointed out, ANY association of men from the small town meeting to the confederation of nations will have its share of bickering, squabbling, and petty politics... it's simply human nature

If we weren't arguing over what we did argue, we would have found something else. Given the experiences of some other demo games, I think the SPDG with the new con faired pretty well by comparison...

	12-08-2003 18:40									#7
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Arnelos, are you suggesting we just stay with the new con? You said something about the old con there...

Anyways I'll write a draft today of what I would like and see what people think.

	12-08-2003 19:21									#8
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I think you all know where I stand on this issue, but just in case.

I say no con. None whatsoever.

Problems? Let's see.

I've seen allot of people who left talk of their reasons being that it all became too political. Term 2 seemed to focus on the OldCon, rules and regulations, politics and bickering, and people began to leave because of it. Term 3 refocused on the GAME. Moving it forward, playing and reporting, rules and politics be damned, and people returned.

The NewCon once again brought out politics and bickering, and people began to leave again and only those who LIKE politics remained.

Without a constitution there will still be plenty of politics for those who like that to discuss. However, since they will not dominate the game by forcing the general public to sift through a 20 post monster to even understand the discussion, those who do not enjoy it will feel more free to contribute.

I, however, will stand by the majority in the end.

	12-08-2003 21:04									#9
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I was one of the judges under the newcon. It was terrable. People kept bringing up court cases because they were having more fun with that than with the actual game. I say no con. We all know that there are 5 positions - Prez, VP, DM, SMC, FAM. That's it. If people have a problem with how something was handled - than it is done with everybody (no court).

Simple.

If peopel feel we need a con - then the newcon is fine. We worked hard on it, and it is a good document.

	12-08-2003 21:18									#10
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Despite technically re-approving the NewCon in the Huge game, we pretty much operated without a con. I would like to point out that, (to my surprise,) this worked fairly well; the meltdown over no rules/no court I was anticipating didn't come. I agree that the NewCon is unnecessary; however, I still think we DO need some sort of basic document that at the very least defines what "playing ahead" is and that it shouldn't be done, and also has rules for impeachment. Those are the two things that must be agreed upon beforehand IMO.

	12-08-2003 21:23									#11
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Oh, that's right! All we need is a new Constitution and everything will be better!



I'm sure if you just added this new bit of text or took out this other thing, and didn't explain this, or further explained that, everything would be fine again.

If it's too long, then it needs to be shorter.

If it's too vague it needs to explain better.

If it's too political, it needs to be more streamlined.

If it's too boring, we should add in more political parties.

And the madness continues. I'm sure that if we just found someone brilliant enough to write us yet another Constitution that all of these problems would go away and the SPDG would be a fun game for everyone to play again. Never mind the fact that there's simple mechanisms to easily change any part of the Constitution -- no, that's too much trouble. Better to simply make a new one.

I spent four weeks with NotYouEither and two other members of the civ community (adaMada & Apocalypse) who are no longer active. For four weeks we argued and struggled to create "the perfect" document, presented it, had it savaged by critics, and then presented another draft. No one was ultimately happy. Everyone wanted their own little project, rule, idea, clarification, procedure included. Everyone then complained that it was too complicated. And ever since then there has been no lack of volunteers to create a "more perfect" Constitution ... one that fits each individual's ideal.

Enough is enough. Either replace the old system with something ENTIRELY different, or spend less time worrying about it and more time thinking of ways to increase activity. Stop trying to remake the wheel and stop trying to fix something that isn't broken.

What made SPDG fun was that there was no PTW. The fun was in competing and arguing and debating. The political parties formed naturally and had nothing to do with either Constitution. The internal politics and drama made people keep logging in and got people excited and interested. The challanges were nice, but there are more challanges in the current game and that hasn't driven interest.

What people love is the drama, competition, and debates. People enjoy the controversy, the flashy posts, the issues, the plans, and the ideas. The last SPDG was also a great place for new strategies and ideas and secrets for playing the game.

Frankly, you may have to go to a GhengisFarbian hybrid sort of game to really bring interest back to SPDG. Add a level of competition amongst the players and make political power mean more than just being the selfless volunteer who logs on late at night and has to labor through a long list of complicated orders.

But if you don't want to change the game at that fundamental level, don't kid yourself by thinking that a new constitution will change anything. It won't. It'll just result in someone else down the line complaining about the latest constitution. Thus allowing the delusion to continue that "If we only fix the con..." everything will be better.

--Togas

	12-08-2003 22:40									#12
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Togas -

I agree with what Kloreep pointed out... technically "using the NewCon" for this second SPDG while in reality simply using it as a guideline seems to have worked very well for limiting squabling over the con.

So why not just keep that?

	12-08-2003 22:51									#13
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Well, on that note ( )

Here is my proposal for a constitution. It may be pretty radical, and some people may not like it. You will notice many parts come from the newcon, as it is based off that. However, I have done away with the court, senate, impeachment, etc:

quote: I. The Government The President (a) The President shall physically play the game and post the save and a report of the game to the forum. (b) The game shall be played on a regular and scheduled basis whenever possible, -(i) If the President is unable to play the game on a regular and scheduled basis, the Vice President shall play it. (c) The President may use turnchats, turnthreads, or another method to play the turn as approved in a poll. (d) The President must follow the instructions of Ministers whilst playing the game, unless, during a turnchat, circumstances unforseen by the Minister dictate another course of action. (e) The President has control over the economy/science/luxury slider and may make changes when he feels they are appropriate. (f) The President decides what technology to research next. (g) The President approves all spending requests. (h) The President must appoint a Vice President. -(i) The Vice President assumes all powers and responsibilities of the President should the President be unable to perform. -(ii) The Vice President shall assist the President in the duties of his or her office whenever possible. -(iv) The President may not dismiss the Vice President. The Vice President may only be removed via impeachment. The Supreme Military Commander (a) The Supreme Military Commander controls all units except settlers and workers. (b) The Supreme Military Commander may disband units under his or her control. (c) The Supreme Military Commander may appoint deputy ministers. The Foreign Affairs Minister (a) The Foreign Affairs Minister has power over exchanges and trade agreements with other nations. (b) The Foreign Affairs Minister may spend gold to establish embassies or preform Espionage, but only after the approval of either the President. (c) The Foreign Affairs Minister may enter into Right of Passage Agreements, Military Alliances, Trade Embargos, or Mutual Protection Pacts, but only after approval is given in a poll. (d) The Foreign Affairs Minister negotiates peace agreements, but only after the approval of either the President or Supreme Military Commander. (e) Any trade, exchange, or gift that involves giving away gold or cities must be approved by the President. (f) Any trade, exchange, or gift that involves giving away workers must be approved by the Domestic Minister. (g) The Foreign Affairs Minister may appoint deputy ministers. The Domestic Minister (a) Is responsible for managing all cities, their production queues, their citizens, and all of the workers and settlers. (b) The Domestic Minister is responsible for choosing sites for new cities and disbanding cities. (e) The Domestic Minister may rush any project, but only with the approval of the President. (g) The Domestic Minister may appoint deputy ministers and regional planners as he sees fit. Chain of Command (a) In the event that the President is unable to perform his duties, they may be performed by the Vice President, Domestic Minister, Supreme Military Commander, or Foreign Affairs Minister, in that order. Vice Ministers or deputies do not substitute for their Minister in this instance. (b) Should a Minister not be able to perform his duties, they may be performed by his Vice Minister, a Deputy Minister with specific authority, or the President, in that order. However, if a Minister has given specific written instructions, those instructions may not be ignored absent an incident as described in Art I, under 'The President' (c) If a Minister is removed from office by a Change of Command poll, all of his or her orders and deputy appointments are nullified. Miscelania (a) Any reference in this Constitution to a "Minister" refers to the Supreme Military Commander, Foreign Affairs Minister, and Domestic Minister. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- II. Citizens 1 Any person who participates in this Democracy Game is considered a citizen. This includes Ministers and the (vice)Presidant. 2 No person shall be denied the right to become a citizen. 3 No citizen shall be denied the right to vote in a poll. 4 A citizen’s vote in a poll is to remain private. No individual with admin powers shall reveal the way a citizen voted. 5 Freedom of speech shall not be denied to any citizen unless it violates Apolyton rules. 6 A member of the government shall not knowingly hide information or give false information to the citizens. 7 All citizens shall have access to the save. 8 No citizen shall play ahead or make any irreversible changes to any of the saved games. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- III. Polling 1. Any citizen may initiate a poll. 2. For the poll to be official it must be open a minimum of 3 days and must have an unbiased first post. 3. The poll will contain 2 or more options as well as an 'abstain' option. 4. Ministers/the President must follow the wishes of any poll that passes with a simple majority. If one is not reached, a runoff poll following these guidelines can be posted. 5. Any poll that does not comply with these regulations is considered an opinion poll and the government is not required to follow its outcome. 6. Polling is required to give approval to: Declarations of War, Right of Passage Agreements, Military Alliances, Trade Embargos, and Mutual Protection Pacts. 7. These polls can also be election polls, as stated in article IV. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- IV. Elections 1. Elections for the President, Supreme Military Commander, Foreign Affairs Minister, and Domestic Minister shall begin on the 1st of every month and end 72 hours later on the 4th of each month. 2. The elections may be posted by any citizen and must follow the rules for polls as stated in article III. 3. Three days before the 1st of the month a nominations thread will be started for each position and any person can confirm their candidacy in that thread. 4. Immediatly after winning the election, the President must appoint a Vice-President. 5. Newly elected Ministers and the President begin their term immmediatly following the closing of the election polls on the 4th. 6. In the event that there are no candidates for either President or a Ministry, it will be assumed that a person in that position is "unable to preform their duties" and we will follow the chain of command as stated in Article I, Chain of Command. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- V. Change of Command 1. A call for a Change of Command poll may be posted at any time against any one Minister as well as the President or Vice President. 2. In the change of command thread, people can announce their candidacy for the position of replacing the Minister/President. The Minister/President may also run to defend their position. 3. There will be two days (48hours) between the CoC announcement and the CoC poll. 4. The Change of Command poll must follow in accordance with the poll rules in Article III. The options must be each person running (with the incumbant topping the poll list) as well as an abstain option. 5. If a CoC poll results in a new Minister/President, the old Minister/President's orders will be disregarded. 6. The new Minister/President will take office immediatly following the closing of the CoC poll. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- VI. Ammendments 1. Amendments to this Constitution can be proposed by any citizen. An amendment is passed and made official when 2/3rds or more of the citizens who vote approve of the change to the Constitution. 2. A poll to pass an amendment must be clear, unbiased, state the full text of the change proposed, and be open for at least 7 days. 3. Abstain votes are not counted for or against passage. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- VII. Conflicting Laws 1. This Constitution above any other proposed laws (polls) - besides ammendments. 2. Conflicts of law must be decided upon with a poll, as described in article III. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- VIII. Constitution Enactment 1. To Be written in later.

My goals in this were pretty simple - to concentrate mostly on the game. You will notice how much shorter this is than the newcon also - this is for simplicity's sake.

There are not many fundamental changes to what we have been doing, but this mostly formalizes them all.


btw, here are some threads I used to make this:

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=83999 < taking about a new constitution for this game; conversation died out.
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=72122 < The newcon.

	13-08-2003 02:50									#14
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hi ,

just a small idea , take a look at the one from CFC , its so simple , so easy , ......

KISS = Keep It Simple Stupid


have a nice day

	13-08-2003 05:45									#15
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Actually, CFC is case in point for the argument of Togas:

The sheer amount of bickering they've had in their DG is an example of how people will find things to bicker about regardless of the format.

	13-08-2003 06:34									#16
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Just to note, I have never read CFC's con, nor have I visited their demogame forum.

That said, I would rather we formalize our current state of (virtual) anarchy... if no one else wants to then fine .

	14-08-2003 02:10									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Panzer32 Just to note, I have never read CFC's con, nor have I visited their demogame forum. That said, I would rather we formalize our current state of (virtual) anarchy... if no one else wants to then fine .

hi ,

yeah well people are always complaining how our con has to be the longest on any civ demogame on the net , bla-bla , etc , ....

even on a couple other sites they start again with the BS , but when push comes to shove , as in this thread inwhere everyone gets to say what they want to say , ........

nothing , absolutely nothing , only a couple people who show good initiative as in this thread , ......

maybe it would make no difference at all if the con was to be thrashed all together , ..... ( wanna bet all of a certain this thread is going to 100 pages then , ....... )

have a nice day

	14-08-2003 03:39									#18
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so no one has any small corrections or stuff for my proposal? You either hate it or love it?

	14-08-2003 10:09									#19
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Honestly, we've functioned well without a ruling document, so why make one now? We can create a simple outline and be done with it.

	16-08-2003 02:04									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Panzer32 so no one has any small corrections or stuff for my proposal? You either hate it or love it?

hi ,

well its short , simple , maybe it needs a few mods ( these kinds of things always need mods after times since this or that shall be found not good , etc , ....... )

but its a shame not to see anymore feedback on it , ......

well done Panzer

have a great weekend

	16-08-2003 04:19									#21
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Panzer, that looks really good to me.

It lays down basic guidelines and regulations for the government, but it isn't a humongus, sprawling monster of a document.

	16-08-2003 06:28									#22
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Thats what I designed it to be.

Any more interest in this thing?