12-08-2003 10:33									#1
	Sunshine 30-turn NAP Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Should we sign a 30-turn Non-Aggression Pact with Team Sunshine.

1. Yes
2. No
3. Abstain

	12-08-2003 10:35									#2
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Argument in favor:

quote: Originally posted by Arnelos It should be noted that Sunshine is playing Greece, so they started the game with the Hoplite 3-defense spearman UU. Given the sheer improbability of taking on their 3-defense Hoplites with our 1-attack Jaguar Warriors, I recommend a target other than Sunshine for a Jaguar rush or even an archer rush. As such, a 30-turn NAP with them (and likely renewed beyond) is a good idea. We can crush them after their UU has lost its effectiveness That said, if our GA gets prematurely started because oru UU is used, it might be worth it given the theme of our team to attack one of their Hoplites mearly to start their GA and ruin whatever GA plans they had... But, for now, NAP and this tech trade both make a great deal of sense. We can whore their techs with our faster exploration units and we'd rather not attack their Hoplites yet anyhow.

	12-08-2003 13:04									#3
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

I agree with Arnelos in this. A jag rush against Greece would be utter suicide, the only purpose of which would be to initiate an early GA for them.

	12-08-2003 16:25									#4
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Jag rushes against hoplites aren't quite as bad as you might think, although you have to tolerate high losses. Probably too high. Against regular, fortified hoplites on flat terrain (or towns). you need 4 vet jags to have a better than 50% chance of taking down the hoplite, and 11 to have a better than 95% chance. Against a veteran hoplite you need 5 jags for a 50% chance, and 12 for a 95% chance. With an infinite supply of jags, on average you lose 2.16 killing a regular hoplite, and 2.60 killing a veteran (with a less than infinite supply, you suffer fewer losses but the hoplite has some chance of surviving obviously).

Bascially, than means that we need to have a better production capacity than Greece by a factor of roughly 1.3 in order to replace our losses faster than they can replace theirs - otherwise it is going to end up in a war of attrition where we slowly run out of jags. And this is assuming all their targets will be on plains, when some of the will be on hills, or have walls, or be over rivers which we are forced to attack across.

On the other hand, jags don't have to be used that way. They can be better used for harassment, pillaging improvements, scaring workers away and (hopefully) whacking settler teams which are lightly guarded early in the game. A war of conquest may be implausible, but a pruning war to stunt their development could undo many turns work early in the game, at a time when it can shunt a civ from being ahead of the pack to being far behind. We might want to consider this before agreeing to a NAP.

Hope this isn't all too serious for a fun-based game

	12-08-2003 23:00									#5
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by vulture Hope this isn't all too serious for a fun-based game

Part of the whole POINT of signing agreements like this with other teams is that we have agreements to BREAK later, so we have a Kuwait to claim is rightfully one of our provinces

So don't worry about us taking all this stuff too seriously

	14-08-2003 05:23									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

No rush on Sunshine then.
I guess their defensive UU plays well for their laid back hippy attitude.

	15-08-2003 15:47									#7
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

So we accept the NAP then?

Have they been informed or shall I (tha ambassadour ) do that?