12-08-2003 20:37									#1
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	12-08-2003 21:01									#2
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The south is almost undefended and Riders and Ansars are riding though the fields there, or are about to bring visits to our cities. Is there a plan to prevent this, or hve we given up the south.

Duke Aidun Cian of Zaragoza from his new temprary estate in Pamplona.

	13-08-2003 03:17									#3
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Chances are that we'll lose 2-4 cities next turn. Almost all our forces are defending, retreating to, our capital.

Assuming they have some healed up Ansars by now, I expect ND to attack our stack before it makes it back to the capital - why would they wait until those defenders get more bonuses?

I know no one want to hear it, but things look pretty bleak.

	13-08-2003 04:07									#4
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I know and I fear for the lives of the citizens of the cities that are left, Pamplona included, I've seen men crusified along the way from Santiago to Zaragoza, I pray that their fate will not be the same as of these helpless victims of hate and jealousy.

Duke Aidun Cian of Zaragoza form his new temporary estate in Pamplona.

Edit, excuse for going too far, I did only mean to desribe hoe horrifing it was for the citizens how these Moors take city after city and how cruel the oppressors are. The phrase has been deleted.

Last edited by Aidun on 13-08-2003 at 04:35

	13-08-2003 04:17									#5
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I think you went a little to far saying people were being raped. This IS just a game. I know you are Role Playing it; but that is over and beyond IMO.

Yes, we will be losing the Southern Cities, but we had planned to give the south to GS anyways. We do get back New Madrid and Toledo this turn. We get 3 turn units out of those two cities. We should consider adding our workers into those cities for a production boost to aid in building Knights.

	13-08-2003 19:16									#6
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And as soon as we get Toledo and New Madrid back (without, may I add, any defenders), we will lose them both.

	14-08-2003 00:20									#7
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There are not any ND or GoW units near them now, as reported by GS. We have time to build a unit or two before they get there, plus GS is still going to be protecting us. Once we build one or two units we can gift the city back to GS if we need to. We will have a few options.

	15-08-2003 03:06									#8
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Save arrived. Forwarded it to everyone.

GoW reports that:

ND and GoW took all of the Spanish cities last turn
except for Barcelona and Pamplona.

Aggie has sent me a PM requesting that we discuss surrender.

Looking bleek. Meet in chat tonight.

--Togas

	15-08-2003 03:07									#9
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Here's the situation....rather bleak, but we still have a chance. We need gold in the worst way.

	15-08-2003 09:46									#10
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Just to note: There was a discussion between Aggie, Master Zen, Arnelos, and myself tonight. A discussion of potential "surrender" terms. It initially was an absolutely insulting proposal that eventually morphed into them allowing us to have all of the land south of the major mountain range and west of the River Tajo.

Arnelos believes we should string them on and gain some potential time for GS. Rationally, I'm split on the proposal, but it assumes a lot of things that I'm doubtful that GoW & ND could ever live up to and I ultimately do not have faith in it. However we both believe that Spain would not accept it if it meant turning against our fellow Catholics in Gathering Storm.

Ultimately nothing has come of this, however, if it is mentioned to you by GoW, tell them we are debating it heavily. As you can see, no new thread was created by either of us.

--Togas

	15-08-2003 10:06									#11
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I just created a thread in order to discuss the extent we should play the ruse or not... I'm open to feedback on that issue.

	15-08-2003 11:33									#12
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We are going to have to switch to Monarchy after this turn. WW is now up to 50% or worse in most cities and without luxes we cannot handle that kind of WW.

--Togas

	15-08-2003 15:39									#13
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Here's a shot after moving two units for intel purposes:

	15-08-2003 16:01									#14
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Both ND and GoW are now spread thin; like too little butter over to much bread!

Now is the time to prepare for a counter attack. Our great friends of Stormia are at the ready. I say we fight to the very end if it needs be. We may be weak but we still have quite an army to fight with.

	15-08-2003 19:56									#15
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We must try to ask Vox and Lego to spy on Zaragosa for us, and promise them a juicy reward as soon as we can concentrate our money on something else.

I await permission to contact Vox. Aidun should do the smae with Lego

	15-08-2003 20:28									#16
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Rather bleak? Bleak is not the word. Impossible.

We have been unable to convince the Egyptians to inflict any damage on our enemies. I have a strange feeling that they have been sitting there waiting for us to crumble so that they could then move in and take our former possessions. They aren't stupid.

We should have seen all of this coming, especially the Chinese betrayal. That we were forced by certain members of our government into such an agreement against popular opinion is a travesty, yes, but if we accept this new agreement of China's, we have commited a crime against God and man.

I refuse to accept any such alliance with our enemies. Let us die like men, now, there is nothing that can save us. But let us go down bravely, and not clawing like rats to get out of our drowning pool. It befits not Spain nor its people. We will not cower in the dust. We will be laid low, but never broken.

Lord Toledo

	15-08-2003 21:57									#17
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Impossible is not the word. their purpose of peace just shows they cannot possibly take pamplona. We must strike now, hwile we have the opportunity to get them spread, focus great strenght on their spread forces and diminish them before they cna gather to attack.
No time for defeat logics now. of course, no one in RP is going to attack GS. Nor are we going to make peace with GoW, this was never considered, bu the point is, we must keep them thinking we will accept it, so they may act foolish.
in WWII something similar happened, hitler didn´t press his attack on Dunkirk ´cause he tought he could convince the britts to go out of the war. Then he lost his only opportunity to capture more than half of the brittish army. Withouth those troops, he could have invaded brittain and won at anytime.
Let us take this opportunity now. I won´t give up this team so easily, I don´t know about you. I mean giving a coup if our leaders decide to give up pamplona (not that I think they will, though).

	16-08-2003 01:10									#18
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quote: Originally posted by History Guy Rather bleak? Bleak is not the word. Impossible. We have been unable to convince the Egyptians to inflict any damage on our enemies. I have a strange feeling that they have been sitting there waiting for us to crumble so that they could then move in and take our former possessions. They aren't stupid. We should have seen all of this coming, especially the Chinese betrayal. That we were forced by certain members of our government into such an agreement against popular opinion is a travesty, yes, but if we accept this new agreement of China's, we have commited a crime against God and man. I refuse to accept any such alliance with our enemies. Let us die like men, now, there is nothing that can save us. But let us go down bravely, and not clawing like rats to get out of our drowning pool. It befits not Spain nor its people. We will not cower in the dust. We will be laid low, but never broken. Lord Toledo

You are 100% wrong about GS, they are willing to do damage, but not at the expense of leving our gifted cities to them at risk. GoW never cam near enough for GS to attack them. It has been GoW who have avoided conflict.

GS feels that this turn they may be able to actively persue GoW/ND.

	16-08-2003 01:56									#19
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I am probably wrong about Egypt, but I am fairly sure that their hold on Bob is untenable unless they wait for us to cut down the enemy to size.

As for Pamplona, I think that they can most definitely take the city, but I'm not sure if they want to wear themselves so thin and then have to take on the Egyptians. I think the Chinese are definitely waiting as much for the Arabs to take Pamplona as they are for a good time to hit the Egyptians.

Headwig Calamari

	16-08-2003 02:11									#20
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GS is ferrying over as many units as their Galley's can carry. They will soon have the forces to both protect Spain and persue GoW/ND. GS has been nearly perfect in all this (except for not giving us back NM last turn).

I'm also sure that both ND and GoW will be holding some forces back in their homelands to prepare for a possible naval landing by GS as well.

	16-08-2003 03:33									#21
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Ok, I made this map to try to figure waht and where and how many of the enemy units are out there, it is kind of grotesque, but we can use this as a base to think how many units did the enemy had and where they are.
Edit: Updated this image with the info from our scouts

Last edited by Nuclear Winter on 16-08-2003 at 04:51

	16-08-2003 07:17									#22
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Results

We have only Pamplona and Barcelona, both are in disorder.
The disorder is initially ignored.

No gifts from GS.

0g and we are -3gpt, but nothing is disbanded automatically.

GoW owns 4 of our southern cities.
ND owns 1

note: Sir Unorthodox is sitting in Merida. He is a 3/5 and was wounded while fighting our pikes there.

Sent our WM to GS

WENT INTO ANARCHY!!! (will return as Monarch next turn)

military:
Chosen Few (spears) E (see GoW Riders around Salamanca)
Red Zealots (pikes) S, SE, E (see 2 wounded GoW Riders)

THE STACK SW and FORT inside Pamplona (inside Pamplona we have 8 cats, 10 pikes, 7 inf, and 4 knights)

Pinta remains FORT
Isabella N, N, W


workers:
Castor & Pollox ROAD
King's Serf DISBAND
GT, El Nino, NW workers, Duke Cain Serfs move E onto Gold Mountain


cities:
changed 1 worker to entertainer to give us production, kill the riots, next turn.
Changed 1 worker to entertainer. Same reason.

	16-08-2003 12:38									#23
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OMG

I am absolutely livid right now.

We should have retaken Salmanca this turn, no doubt about it.

GoW and ND are spread thin now; thats why they are asking for peace. That's the time to hit them. What are you waiting for? The 'perfect' time to counter-attack? There's no such thing, we have two cities left and way to many units to support with those two cities. We need our cities back. Do you expect GS to fight all of our battles?


Togas, I made this recomendation to you last night and in this thread. Why did you not address it here or in chat with me before playing the turn?

It would be so easy to defend Salmanca on the next turn. It has walls and is on a hill. 4 pikes, 4 Cats, and the Knight to capture that city would have held easily over GoW's units. even if ND would have attacked it, they would have taken major loses. Out Pikes would have a defensive value of 6 against all attackers, plus they would have had the additional support of the Cats, boosting the defesive strength of those units. If ND and GoW wants to attack us with those odds, in our favor, why not let them? Especially considering we had a good chance to both reduce the number of units they have and getting our city back.

I'm ready to quit this team. I'm really that pissed off.

	16-08-2003 13:38									#24
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1) You should have been in chat.
2) Salamanca is on hills with walls. Defenders are at 6.
3) It would cost us 2 knights to kill the one that's there, and if there's more, it would likely cost us all our knights. Yay. We lose more units than they do.
4) Salamanca is size 1 with no culture. We capture it, it self-destructs.

do I need to go on?

--Togas

	16-08-2003 13:55									#25
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quote: Originally posted by BigFree OMG I am absolutely livid right now. We should have retaken Salmanca this turn, no doubt about it. GoW and ND are spread thin now; thats why they are asking for peace. That's the time to hit them. What are you waiting for? The 'perfect' time to counter-attack? There's no such thing, we have two cities left and way to many units to support with those two cities. We need our cities back. Do you expect GS to fight all of our battles? Togas, I made this recomendation to you last night and in this thread. Why did you not address it here or in chat with me before playing the turn? It would be so easy to defend Salmanca on the next turn. It has walls and is on a hill. 4 pikes, 4 Cats, and the Knight to capture that city would have held easily over GoW's units. even if ND would have attacked it, they would have taken major loses. Out Pikes would have a defensive value of 6 against all attackers, plus they would have had the additional support of the Cats, boosting the defesive strength of those units. If ND and GoW wants to attack us with those odds, in our favor, why not let them? Especially considering we had a good chance to both reduce the number of units they have and getting our city back. I'm ready to quit this team. I'm really that pissed off.

Am I the only one it occurs to that if a considerable chunk of our forces were to go to Salamanca, ND and GoW would not attack them, but merely cut the tiles of road between Pamplona and Salamanca and then laugh that our forces would be incapable of linking back up before they could come at us with a tall stack of Ansar Warriors and Riders? Splitting up our forces is entirely the WRONG move right now. If we were going to go to Salamanca because of the hills, we would send the ENTIRE army so that we might take advantage of the hill and just abandon Pamplona. There's little sense in just splitting up our forces and allowing the enemy to isolate each from the other and kill them seperately.

Furthermore, why on earth would you quit the team over one thing like this. For the record, Togas' first question when he was starting the chat was "Where is BigFree?" He wanted you to be there to offer your advice on your idea. As it was, we couldn't see the wisdom in splitting up our forces and allowing them to be so easily isolated from one another all for one city. It's better to keep them all holed up together and maintain a single deathtrap.

As for quiting the team, you know very well from being a Consul in the ISDG that decisions simply have to be MADE in chat and we can't wait around for hours or days when we've already sat on the save for entire day. You are ALSO aware from being a Consul that when two persons or groups offer competing advice, the executive(s) simply have to make a decision and go with it - which, of necessity, means at least SOMEONE's advice was not taken.

Given that in the ISDG, you are an Executive and Togas one of your appointed advisors, I'd expect you to have an intimate level of familiarity with this concept.

Your advice was listened to (at least that which you gave thusfar), considered, and ultimately not taken. It happens to the best of us.

	16-08-2003 15:03									#26
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First of all if we re-took Salmanca, it would not auto-raze; it would go directly to us. It belonged to us and it would go directly to us no matter the size.


I'm mad because Togas and whomever else was in the chat to play the save never bothered to come to this forum to discuss what we should do. They left all that discussion for the chat. This was an important decision. We had the save for over 24 hours, some dicussion should have taken place. If my idea was at least discussed here or even addressed here, I might not be so mad. I put a lot of effort into this game and team. I did not jump ship because things looked bleak.

I know we don't have that many active players, but the ones that are active should be given the opportunity to present ideas and have the teams leader address those ideas.

I'm not threatening to quit because my advise was not taken; it's becuase it was not even addressed. It might have been brought up in a chat. But where was I to argue my point? I gave my advice to Togas over 24 hours ago, and little comment was made. I was told Togas would not be availble for chat during the next day because of work, that's cool. But, the discussion should have been carried here. NW, HG and myself were the only ones to comment on the current turn status after Arnelos stared the thread, and Togas made an intial entry about the turn.

I understand that I am not the leader, nor should I expect my advice to be followed. But there are very few active RP team members around right now. Those that are deserve to be recognized. I guess what it boils down to is that I'm mad that Togas or Arnelos (or whomever was in the turn chat) never commented or discussed in this thread about my advice before playing the turn.

	16-08-2003 18:38									#27
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I was going to discuss this issue, but due to an internet crashdown I was unable to attend the chat.
Although I think it would have been a good idea to attack Salamanca, we can still see to it this turn. What is done is done, and since turns won´t come back I sugest we move on to teh next issues. As for leaving the team, I say for me and for our team as a whole when I say we want you to stay here. Your help is invaluable, and all apreciate it.
Nuke

	16-08-2003 20:43									#28
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Yeah, we should have hit Salamanca, if only to cause confusion in their ranks and delay them.

Headwig Calamari

	17-08-2003 00:22									#29
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IMHO - looking at teh save, Salamanca would not be a good target. I agree with the decision to not bother with it at this initial stage. It will tie down one of their better units to defend it. Although I don't know where we are marching now, it should be at the core of ND - towards their capital. That will drive the buggers mad and let GS do some cleaning up behind us.

	17-08-2003 07:52									#30
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BigFree has a point.

It is good that we give advises, but a little comment from those that do the chat is nice. However, we are all busy people and we have oftenly too little time to make such comments. Especially Togas is doing a great, but timeconsuming job.

There is but a problem that I once adressed in the ISDG, but for which I have been branded as a heretic by some that are not on this team. In the ISDG there was a club of leaders that rules the team and is doing the chats and that kind of stuff. The problem I felt was that the game was becoming "their own game", while it is "the teams game".
We have to watch out that such things do not happen here. Until now we have all kept as much involved as possible and we have to go on like that. Togas and Arnelos and all others that are enormously involved and help governing Spain and play the game do a great job, but could do a better one by for instance asking random players what they think is wise to do, during the chat, before it, after it. This gives everyone of us at least the idea that the leaders care for our opinion.
I'm the Lord Chamberlain here, the "2nd most powerful individual in Spain", part of the executive and not because it sounds so nice. Although I couldn't be always online this week and have been on holiday for a few weeks and I am not online on most times when the chat is held, noone seems interested to just ask me what I think is a good strategy, or wheter we should move a certain unit or not.

Please, if this comment irritates any of our leaders, remind that I do not have the intention to insult you or whatever else, but want an open discussion about the feelings that we have. I know from my experiences at the ISDG that I am taking a risk adressing things like this, but I think it is important. If you think I am wrong, please let me know this kindly without creating a flame war.

You are all great people, each of you with his special qualities. Together we are mighty, in mind and, I think we can, in this game.

Aidun