12-08-2003 23:35									#1
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Jesus! When will they stop trying to invade my privacy? Am I going to have to take my mailbox down now?

http://news.com.com/2100-1028_3-5062617.html?tag=cd_mh

quote: A government report that urges the U.S. Postal Service to create "smart stamps" to track the identity of people who send mail is eliciting concern from privacy advocates. The report, released last month by the President's Commission on the U.S. Postal Service, issued numerous recommendations aimed at reforming the debt-laden agency. One recommendation is that the USPS "aggressively pursue" the development of a so-called intelligent mail system. Though details remain sketchy, an intelligent mail system would involve using barcodes or special stamps, identifying, at a minimum, the sender, the destination and the class of mail. USPS already offers mail-tracking services to corporate customers. The report proposes a broad expansion of the concept to all mail for national security purposes. It also suggests USPS work with the U.S. Department of Homeland Security to develop the system. Such a system would not only allow the postal service to provide better mail-tracking information to consumers, the report said; it could give law enforcement authorities new investigative tools in the event of a mail-related terrorist attack such as the anthrax-tainted letters that killed five people and sickened more than a dozen others in 2001. The authorities have yet to solve that case. "Intelligent mail has the potential to improve significantly the security of the nation's mail stream, particularly if the postal service fully explores whether it is feasible to require every piece of mail to include sender identification, in order to better assure its traceability in the event of foul play," the report said. Privacy watchdogs worry, however, that requiring sender identification for all mail presents serious risks to civil liberties. "We have a long history in this country of anonymous political speech," said Ari Schwartz, associate director of the Center for Democracy and Technology. Any change that removes anonymity from the public mail system is "making a major change to political discourse in this country," he said. Such a system could also facilitate expanded government surveillance powers, said Chris Hoofnagle, deputy counsel at the Electronic Privacy Information Center. For instance, the FBI is already allowed to photocopy the outside of unopened letters and packages sent and received by suspected criminals in order to monitor their communications, Hoofnagle said. An intelligent mail system could make conducting such "mail cover" activity easier, enabling the FBI to build databases tracking communication among people on a broader scale, he noted. Hoofnagle and Schwartz also questioned the cost and effectiveness of a system that hinges on proving the identity of millions of individual mail senders. Even an overhaul of the entire postal system may not thwart stamp-swipers and identity thieves, they said. "In order to close those holes, you have to move toward a police state," Hoofnagle said. The commission's report notes briefly that "issues of privacy should, of course, be noted and balanced with the value of enhanced safety." A representative of the commission wasn't immediately available to explain how the postal service might actually strike such a balance. A USPS representative said the agency is still reviewing the report and declined to comment on its recommendations. However, the USPS already has been investigating intelligent mail technology for at least two years. It made development of the system part of a "transformation plan" it issued last year. USPS has also assigned its chief privacy officer, Zoe Strickland, to set up a working group to examine and incorporate privacy considerations into intelligent mail programs, according to a document on the agency's Web site. The commission that released the report is overseen by the U.S. Department of the Treasury and was established by an executive order from President Bush last year. It’s led by Harry Pearce, chairman of Hughes Electronics, a subsidiary of General Motors, and James Johnson, vice chairman of Perseus, an investment banking firm. Major high-tech companies, including Canon, Hewlett-Packard, IBM, Lockheed Martin, Pitney Bowes, Symbol Technologies and Stamps.com, are pushing the Postal Service to adopt intelligent mail systems. Each participates in a special committee on intelligent mail run by the Mailing Industry Task Force, a cross-industry group formed in 2001 with the support of Postmaster General John Potter.

	12-08-2003 23:36									#2
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you have nothing to hide, right?

	12-08-2003 23:40									#3
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It's only a matter of time before the tracking chips are implanted into our skulls.

	12-08-2003 23:40									#4
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I dont think homeland security needs to have a big brother state.

I will tolerate surveillance up to my front door, and public internet usage, i.e., this. However, I will not tolerate my private correspondence, digital or otherwise, or information in my home, on my hard disk, on private servers (like email etc) being subject to snooping.

It is my belief that if you conduct something in public, it is public information, so there is no logical barrier in this particular context for a government to collect that into (surveillance cameras etc). Of course, if a government does do that, it may well be unwise, but thats a different matter, in the governments hand and no concern of mine.

If they step beyond said boundaries, then that is a breach of my liberty, which sucks

	12-08-2003 23:42									#5
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The best thing we can hope for is that their massive data-collection goes through until they figure out they have no hope to process the data.

	12-08-2003 23:43									#6
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Diss: If you've got nothing to hide, that is no reason not to be concerned about a breach of liberty, see my prev post.

Indeed, I do have something to worry about, I write some articles that may well piss people off... its unlikely but I'm not prepared to take idiotic risks with my privacy.. back against the wall and all that.

	12-08-2003 23:44									#7
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quote: Originally posted by mrmitchell The best thing we can hope for is that their massive data-collection goes through until they figure out they have no hope to process the data.

the NSA already collects more data then it can hope to process. it still collects it though.

	12-08-2003 23:46									#8
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quote: until they figure out they have no hope to process the data.

They wouldn't process it, merely stockpile it, then someone would type a request, like "mrmitchell" and up would come a report, generated by various data mining techniques on you.

	12-08-2003 23:47									#9
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quote: Diss: If you've got nothing to hide, that is no reason not to be concerned about a breach of liberty, see my prev post.

Another problem is what should you hide. Yes, I wouldn't want the government to know that I was building a bomb. But would they get me for being a communist? Or saying ANYTHING against it?

New tracking widens the chance for this misuse of power to happen.

EDIT: All situations were hypothetical

	12-08-2003 23:47									#10
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Since when is the mere fact of sending mail (separate issue from reading the contents) through the postal service a "privacy" issue?

	12-08-2003 23:50									#11
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Agreed, its wide open to abuses, which is why I think its unwise, but I have no philosophical objections to it as long as it complies with the boundaries I laid down.

MtG: Would you differentiate between the discrete fact of a private correspondence from X to Y as being acceptable for info grabbing, but not the contents? I consider the message itself and its contents to be private, but thats open to argument, as am I on that position.

	12-08-2003 23:50									#12
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Since the Anthrax thingy occure

That combine with Fed-ex and UPS stealing all their package deliveries, add in reductions due to e-mail...

The USPS is grabbing at straws.

	12-08-2003 23:57									#13
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Does the USPS deliver on Saturdays as a regular thing?

	13-08-2003 00:01									#14
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Well I think in identifying who sent mail with anthrax this is a good idea. It just says where the mail came from in origin, right? As long as it stays there, what is the problem with that?

	13-08-2003 00:08									#15
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This would be hell to do in practice. This means either that:

a) the traditional curbside mail box would have to disappear in favour of individual locked boxes

b) that you'd have to give ID when purchasing stamps

Can you imagine?

	13-08-2003 00:11									#16
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Yeah, here's the big security hole - the public mailbox. I buy a stamp, stick it on a letter, and drop it in a public mailbox.

Does this mean that they are going to eliminate mailboxes? Will I have to walk all the way to the post office to send in my bills? You can't show picture ID to a mailbox. (Or are they going to build "smart mailboxes" too

Or are they just going to barcode your stamps? Thus creating a highly lucrative black market in stolen stamps?

This whole idea is stupid.

	13-08-2003 00:13									#17
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quote: Originally posted by elijah MtG: Would you differentiate between the discrete fact of a private correspondence from X to Y as being acceptable for info grabbing, but not the contents? I consider the message itself and its contents to be private, but thats open to argument, as am I on that position.

If someone wants to "privately" correspond with someone else, better send it through a private courier, or deliver it. If it's sent through a postal service or common carrier, it is being looked at and handled by a lot of people, and I think it's a stretch to say that the addresses on the outside are subject to the same expectation of privacy as the contents sealed inside.

	13-08-2003 00:15									#18
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat If someone wants to "privately" correspond with someone else, better send it through a private courier, or deliver it. If it's sent through a postal service or common carrier, it is being looked at and handled by a lot of people, and I think it's a stretch to say that the addresses on the outside are subject to the same expectation of privacy as the contents sealed inside.

The contents of the correspondence are private. But the outside of the letter is visible... I think "smart stamps" would be a waste of money and highly unproductive in making us more secure, but it's not a violation of privacy.

	13-08-2003 00:18									#19
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MtG: Perhaps, I think I can go for that. Needless to say, if you want secure correspondance, you send them an email via a dud box with a hacked IP, encrypted as much as you possibly can, preferably with a one-time pad where you both have the key... perhaps as an entire digital novel with strange things done to it that wont be known to anyone...

Damn I'm good!

EDIT: or an even better key would be an entire CD!!

Last edited by Whaleboy on 13-08-2003 at 00:33

	13-08-2003 00:31									#20
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Does this mean I won't have to pay for a DC# anymore?

	13-08-2003 00:32									#21
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Does the USPS deliver on Saturdays as a regular thing?

Yes.

	13-08-2003 01:17									#22
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quote: If someone wants to "privately" correspond with someone else, better send it through a private courier, or deliver it. If it's sent through a postal service or common carrier, it is being looked at and handled by a lot of people, and I think it's a stretch to say that the addresses on the outside are subject to the same expectation of privacy as the contents sealed inside

It's not that I have a total expectation of privacy. I just feel I should have an opportunity at privacy instead of having my business looked into. If I'm under suspicion then come get some; if not, do something about the crackheads at the end of my street.