12-08-2003 23:38									#1
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My text will be short, but i hope you all say alot on this


In your opinion, do these groups constitute an attack on freedom? (this includes similar groups, like the anti-alchohol etc)

For example, should the govt have to force bars to be no smoking areas? Or should it be upto indviduals weather they goto a no smoke, or smoking bar?


Should tobbacco ads be banned etc?

what do you think about it?

	12-08-2003 23:44									#2
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I'm conflicted on this issue.

I don't like restricting freedom of speech.

But I saw some stats on nicotine that is disturbing. Less than 5% of people are able to quick. Cold turkey quitting is like 2%. It's such a powerful drug it needs to be regulated.

So yes I do support bans on tobacco ads.

I don't support smoke free bars. But I don't like the reverse either. I hate having to go into a bar and be forced to inhale all that smoke. I wish some bars would voluntarily be smoke free, but there is no market for that.

	12-08-2003 23:46									#3
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as to tobacco dangers, shouldn't that be covered with a better educational approach? whouldn't people at a young age be made more aware, but without being told 'don't do it'. Just 'these are the facts... now its up to you' ??

	12-08-2003 23:46									#4
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Smoking kills. Ban it.

	12-08-2003 23:48									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Richelieu Smoking kills. Ban it.

life kills....

but if someone wants to do something, no matter what harm it will do them, why should we stop them if they know full well the harm it can do?

	12-08-2003 23:49									#6
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Driving kills. Ban it?

Ok, not a perfect analogy...


Let's just say that banning everything that's bad for you doesn't strike me as good policy. How about that "war on drugs" eh?

-Arrian

	12-08-2003 23:50									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Driving kills. Ban it? Ok, not a perfect analogy... Let's just say that banning everything that's bad for you doesn't strike me as good policy. How about that "war on drugs" eh? -Arrian

Smoking kills. It serves no purpose. Everything about smoking is bad for you. Ban it.

	12-08-2003 23:51									#8
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yes but cigarrette smoke is really bad for you.

driving doesnt' kill you- crashing does

	12-08-2003 23:52									#9
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I don't mind stepping out of the bar to have a cig... It's not good for me and it's worse to everyone else.

Ads? With all the cig bashing adds won't do any good anyway.

Did anyone ever notice that on US beer commercials the people with the beers are never drinking any of it?

	12-08-2003 23:52									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident yes but cigarrette smoke is really bad for you. driving doesnt' kill you- crashing does

but the people (atleast in western countries) now know the dangers, if they still want to do it, then why should we go out of our way to make it difficult for them?

	12-08-2003 23:53									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Richelieu Smoking kills. It serves no purpose. Everything about smoking is bad for you. Ban it.

But smoking makes you ! How will anyone be able to be if smoking is banned?

	12-08-2003 23:55									#12
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Lots of things serve no purpose, and yet are bad for you.

How much banning are you willing to do?

The argument you ought to be hammering home, IMO, is that second hand smoke is harmful, and therefore if I smoke and you inhale some of it, I'm harming you, not just myself.

-Arrian

	12-08-2003 23:55									#13
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yes it is illegal for them to drink alcohol on tv ads in the U.S. for some reason.

I never realy think cig ads do anything- except to people already addicted. how is a older guy sitting on a horse going to get me to smoke marlboros? Even if I saw a hot naked chick sitting on a horse, that wouldn't work on me.

	12-08-2003 23:56									#14
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quote: Originally posted by ixnay But smoking makes you ! How will anyone be able to be if smoking is banned?

we'd figure out some other self destructive way. We still have heavy drinking and tattoos

	12-08-2003 23:57									#15
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quote: Smoking kills. It serves no purpose. Everything about smoking is bad for you. Ban it.

Drinking alocohol kills. It serves no purpose. Everything about drinking alcohol is bad for you. Ban it.



In the end, it's basically the same. Drinking alcohol and smoking tobacco both kill and are both there to get you buzzed.

	12-08-2003 23:59									#16
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ahh, but there are good effects to alcohol, that is not true with smoking.

	13-08-2003 00:00									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Richelieu Smoking kills. Ban it.

So does fast food... booze... fast cars... sports...
Just because it kills doesn't mean it should be banned.
Life would pretty boring if ANYTHING that could kill you was banned.


As long as it is a legal product, the only restrictriction placed on advertising by the government should be that all ads should include Health Warnings... just like is required for other dangerous products. The current restrictions on Tobacco advertising is a knee jerk reaction to PC attitudes and are a total crock. Fast food joints can spend billions of dollars a years trying to sell us food that will also cause death in the long run...

As far as privately owned bars and food places be FORCED by the government to restrict all smoking... that's crap as well. As stated by somebody else... there isn't a market for smoke free bars. And bar owners know that... they are lossing business because the government is telling them how to run their businesses, and that they can't allow a legal product. Total Crap.

All you that say you hate going to smoke filled bars, you could make an effort to support only those bars that BY CHOICE are smoke free. And maybe then there would be a market for smoke free bars.. The decision should be made by the customers and owners... not crammed down their throat by govenment.

Sure... second hand smoke is bad for you... but it is your choice to enter a smoking enviornment... don't then whine about how bad it is... But you will say all the good places have smoke... and you have no choice.

I say "bull"... support good places that don't allow it.

Tobacco and booze have gone together for a long time... deal with it. Let the market decide.

	13-08-2003 00:01									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian The argument you ought to be hammering home, IMO, is that second hand smoke is harmful, and therefore if I smoke and you inhale some of it, I'm harming you, not just myself. -Arrian

but passive smoking is not harmfull, unless you worked in a smokey night club for 50 yrs, every night.


anyway, this is about the attack on freedom.

	13-08-2003 00:04									#19
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At most, public property can be smoke-free. But each locale should decide what's best in that regard. Smoking bans that encompass privately owned restaurants violate the freedom of those business owners to decide the internal affairs of their private establishments.

Sure smoking kills, but so does eating 10 cheeseburgers a day. Should that be illegal, too? The safety nazis in this country have gone too far. The balance between fairness and health is a pendulum, and it is swung too far. Hopefully it can correct itself.

	13-08-2003 00:09									#20
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quote: Originally posted by The Andy-Man but passive smoking is not harmfull, unless you worked in a smokey night club for 50 yrs, every night.

BS. Bunnygrrl worked in a bar for just a winter, and she was coughing constantly because of the smoke.

If you want to smoke, do it outside and away from the entrance. If you chose to engage in a disgusting, foul, and dangerous habit, don't be suprise when the rest of society decides to ostracize you for it. The rights of the more than 2/3rds of us who don't smoke should not be infringed by you folks. My favorite vote ever was here in Florida when I got to cast a ballot to make restaraunts smoke free.

	13-08-2003 00:10									#21
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quote: ahh, but there are good effects to alcohol, that is not true with smoking.

Your bias is showing. What are the good effects of alcohol that smoking does that have? As far as I can see the good effects of alcohol are EXACTLY the same as the good effects of smoking.

	13-08-2003 00:10									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Sava Sure smoking kills, but so does eating 10 cheeseburgers a day.

You eating ten cheeseburgers a day doesn't harm me. Your smoking next to me does.

	13-08-2003 00:11									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: ahh, but there are good effects to alcohol, that is not true with smoking. Your bias is showing. What are the good effects of alcohol that smoking does that have? As far as I can see the good effects of alcohol are EXACTLY the same as the good effects of smoking.

Smoking has no good effects. Alcohol lowers stress and lowers the risk of colon cancer. Red wine even goes further and helps lower colesterol.

	13-08-2003 00:12									#24
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quote: If you want to smoke, do it outside and away from the entrance. If you chose to engage in a disgusting, foul, and dangerous habit, don't be suprise when the rest of society decides to ostracize you for it. The rights of the more than 2/3rds of us who don't smoke should not be infringed by you folks. My favorite vote ever was here in Florida when I got to cast a ballot to make restaraunts smoke free.

If you want to go into a restaurant, you should follow the rules of that private establishment . If you don't agree with their policies, don't be suprised when there is smoking in their private restaurants .

	13-08-2003 00:14									#25
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quote: Smoking has no good effects.

Of course it does. The people that do it feel calmer when doing so. For many it lowers stress .

	13-08-2003 00:18									#26
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Personally, as a smoker (only on the weekends), I don't have a problem with going outside to smoke. It just isn't a big deal for me, and I totally understand if people inside who are nonsmokers don't wanna smell my smoke.

-Arrian

	13-08-2003 00:20									#27
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I have to go with Che.

Studies have shown moderate consumtion of alcohol can have some health benefits. Alcohol at least has calories which you can sue to burn of, and moderate use of alcohol does not harm anyone in your vicinity. None of these things apply to cigarretes, cigars, or pipes. They impose a large burden on health services , and can hurt not only those doing it but those nearby.

aybe, if when you decide to smoke you also signed a waiver disqualifying you for vaiorus forms of health insdurance and government health programs like medicare and medicaid, so that you and you alone paid for the ceonsequences of your action,s fine. BUt if tax dollars go towards taking care of you, then the state has a right ot regulate certain behaviors.

	13-08-2003 00:21									#28
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara You eating ten cheeseburgers a day doesn't harm me. Your smoking next to me does.

Then go to a non-smoking restaurant... you have free will, this is a capitalist society. Let your dollars do your talking. I agree with public smoking bans, but not bans that encroach on a private business owners' right to dictate what goes on in a private establishment.

And for some, smoking does serve a purpose... whether they enjoy the feeling (smoking tobacco does have physical effects), or whether it's just a crutch-habit, you have no right to dictate what people do to their bodies. Likewise, you have no right to complain about what goes on in private establishments because you are there of your own free will... and so are the employees. They can quit if they don't like the atmosphere.

As for the cheeseburgers, yes, it does affect you. The cost of obesity is staggering. But the way to combat obesity and smoking isn't to ban the substances or their use, it's to educate.

Sorry, your freedom killing ideas are the wrong solution to this problem.

	13-08-2003 00:22									#29
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my city does not have non-smoking restaurants or bars. and definately no smoke free casinos

even worse, nearly every person in my city smokes. It's one of those addictive habits like gambling.

	13-08-2003 00:23									#30
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Gepap,

Does the state also have a right to put you on a diet if you decide to eat outrageously, to the point of turning yourself into a whale with a 300 cholesterol? That's pretty harmful to the health too, isn't it?

Where do you stop?

-Arrian