13-08-2003 11:42									#1
	General discussions on a possible Great Leader during our War with GCA Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

O.k. as we are nearing the start off of the war against GCA (about 16 turns from this post), we need to look at the possibility of the generation of a Great Leader. So that we don't get bogged down with discussions at that possible point in time, this thread will be used for that purpose.

As of this point in time, we can use a GL for the following:

All of the Anchent Era GA's EXCEPT for Pyraminds (lost civ built it) and Hanging Gardens (we don't have Monarchy).

The Colossus (costal city only)
The Great Library
The Great Lighthouse
The Great Wall
The Oracle

Midevil Era GA's:
Sun Tzu

Army (of MI's)

E_T

	13-08-2003 11:46									#2
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I would lean towards the Lighthouse, especially given our current situation...

	13-08-2003 11:59									#3
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#1 Sun Tzu
#2 Forbidden Palace
#3 Army (For the heroic epic)

	13-08-2003 12:23									#4
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#1 - Forbidden Palace
#2 - First Army (for Heroic Epic)
#3 and beyond: wonders... whatever is available and would be cool.

I'll grant that perhaps the Forbidden Palace should wait until a war with CFC since we want to build it in CFC's current territory, but the Forbidden Palace is more critical to us than any ancient wonder and even more critical to us than our first army (as important as that army is for the Heroic Epic).

If we aren't ready to build our Forbidden Palace yet, no question you do a first army, win with the army, and use your Golden Age to build the Heroic Epic so you raise the chances of getting another GL.... when you get that OTHER GL, you use him on the Forbidden Palace.

Everything else is secondary in my opinion

	13-08-2003 12:27									#5
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I must concur with Trip on this one - contact could be vital for us, and would allow us to potentially break clear of the technological problem we might have soon with a warring neighbor and a weak CFC.

Sun Tzu's would be great if we had a lot more cities, but we don't. The Forbidden Palace, I'm guessing, will be built close to home and then we'll play Palace-abandonment jumping tricks at a later date. An army...well, an army would be nice, but there will be at least one more war on this continent before all is said and done.

	13-08-2003 12:34									#6
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I agree, the Lighthose could save our bacon.

	13-08-2003 16:08									#7
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If we build the Lighthouse and sail over, then what? Trade contacts are nice, but there will be only two civs on the other continent left by then.

Sun Tzu's is a very good wonder. Any civ considering a war with us would have to think twice before starting it.

Forbidden Palace would be nice, too, but only if we have a good spot for it secured.

	13-08-2003 16:59									#8
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I would probably make my list as follows:

1) Sun Tzu's - we WILL have a lot of cities here...
2) Great Lighthouse - the value of contacts seems obvious to me
3) Army - I assume we'll want to move the Palace anyway, so building FP somewhere around Ciudo and a Palace in today's China makes sense... but that's too far in the future, so if we get 3 GLs before we are the sole owners of this property, I'd go for an Army.

	13-08-2003 19:17									#9
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I'm undecided between these two, but they're definitely the top choices:

Great Lighthouse
Forbidden Palace

There have been some pretty good arguments for the Lighthouse already. But do not discount the most important Wonder, the FP! Our Palace is not centrally located, and we actually have some land to expand into at this point (CDG's). It's an investment, but one that will most definitely pay off if we're in this for the long haul. I'll post a thread detailing where I think we should put it.

Another thought is that if we spot the other teams we might want to delay contact and grab the Great Library. If we can keep up with them in the research game, at least for the time being, we're "in the game".


Dominae

	13-08-2003 21:08									#10
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Sun Tzu is most valuable for lazy people. Unless you're embroiled in constant war and need to be pumping out units from every city 24/7 Sun Tzu is a luxury.

The FP would be a good choice, but we would need the city in place (1 of Cuido), which we don't). If we get a GL on turn 4 of the war and want to use it for our FP then we're kind of in a jam.

Library is good for another 3 techs. Education is only a wee bit away (especially if CGN got Monotheism), and unless we make contact in the next 10 turns, it won't yield us crap.

	13-08-2003 21:28									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Trip Library is good for another 3 techs. Education is only a wee bit away (especially if CGN got Monotheism), and unless we make contact in the next 10 turns, it won't yield us crap.

Are you sure it works like this? 'cause IIRC I heard it worked like that you got all the techs you did not know, but two other civs you knew had known , up until the turn you got Education. Which, I figured, meant you were able to get even techs BEYOND Education (at least in the non-Edu branch), provided you held the contact long enough to let the "lost" civs accumulate techs enough.

Means, you cannot really say how many techs we might get through the GLib...

Not that I would be advocating using GL to build a GL...

	13-08-2003 21:46									#12
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Nope...

Once Education is researched the Library is toast. You get nuthin'!

	13-08-2003 22:54									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Trip Nope... Once Education is researched the Library is toast. You get nuthin'!

Actually Vondrack is correct. If you have the Great Library and then make contact with two civs that have advanced beyond education (that's unlikely in this case though), you will get the techs beyond before the Great Library actually expires.

	13-08-2003 23:08									#14
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You will get the techs leading up to and Including Education, Plus all of the "lower" techs that have already been researched, but you do NOT get anything beyond that point. It would be a good way to get "caught up" with the others, if it happens.

My picks:
#1 Sun Tsu - for 3 reasons (maybe more):
1) to not have to pay for barracks in our cities on this contenant;
2) to deny it from anyone else, especially the lost civs;
3) Trip had argued that we don't need it, unless we are planning to crank out mil units everywhere, but the barracks also allow quick healing and SOMEDAY, we will be at war with one or more of the Lost Civs and already having this advantage would be a great boon.

#2 FP - but we will need to have the city that we are going to place it in moved and that won't be ready until around the end of the war, at this point in time. So the next pick might take presedence.

#3 Great Lighthouse - also for the abaility to get our galleys closer to the other contenent and the move of 4 (really good for exploreing into the deep water).

E_T

	13-08-2003 23:45									#15
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Two points:

1. The Great Library does provide techs beyond Education, assuming you learn Education and all these techs in the same turn. This is known as the "slingshot effect", and is present in both SP and MP.

The question is: should we delay contact in order to get a little more out of the Great Library? If the lost civs split up the tech tree, we could end up with around 6+ techs out of the GL instead of 3. However, we would be way behind in all the diplo stuff, which is very important in PBEM MP. Also, we would not have access to Knights and Cathedrals, but this is not so bad considering the situation on our continent.

All things considered, I believe we have better options in the event of a Great Leader.

2. The presence of a well-placed FP would have such a profound effect on our overall power that it would definitely be reasonable to sit on our Great Leader for a bunch of turns in case the site is not yet ready. It's not like we're going to be winning that many battles with Elites in the war against GCA.

This is also a very good time to point out that the site Trip mentions for our FP should be claimed and settled ASAP. Between optimizing our Empire for Republic/GA and setting up our FP, I think FP should take priority (we just need to "spare" a Settler out of some city). Our FP is something we have to think about now, instead of when we get a Great Leader. The Great Leader may never come...


Dominae

	13-08-2003 23:58									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae 1. The Great Library does provide techs beyond Education, assuming you learn Education and all these techs in the same turn. This is known as the "slingshot effect", and is present in both SP and MP. The question is: should we delay contact in order to get a little more out of the Great Library? If the lost civs split up the tech tree, we could end up with around 6+ techs out of the GL instead of 3. However, we would be way behind in all the diplo stuff, which is very important in PBEM MP. Also, we would not have access to Knights and Cathedrals, but this is not so bad considering the situation on our continent. All things considered, I believe we have better options in the event of a Great Leader. 2. The presence of a well-placed FP would have such a profound effect on our overall power that it would definitely be reasonable to sit on our Great Leader for a bunch of turns in case the site is not yet ready. It's not like we're going to be winning that many battles with Elites in the war against GCA. This is also a very good time to point out that the site Trip mentions for our FP should be claimed and settled ASAP. Between optimizing our Empire for Republic/GA and setting up our FP, I think FP should take priority (we just need to "spare" a Settler out of some city). Our FP is something we have to think about now, instead of when we get a Great Leader. The Great Leader may never come... Dominae

Not to disagree with you E_T, but Dominae is correct about the Great Library. IF the other civs have techs beyond education when you contact them, you'll get all those techs before the Great Library expires.

Beyond that though, I've thought about it a bit more and agree that the Great Library isn't the best option (which also will change my vote in the galley poll). Setting up for the FP (and I liked the placement in that other thread) should be a priority whether or not we get a leader. Sun Tzu is a good wonder to have as well though, so I think I'll wait to fully make up my mind which one I'd rather have. Right now I'm leaning toward a well-placed FP though.

	14-08-2003 00:06									#17
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quote: Originally posted by E_T You will get the techs leading up to and Including Education, Plus all of the "lower" techs that have already been researched, but you do NOT get anything beyond that point. It would be a good way to get "caught up" with the others, if it happens. My picks: #1 Sun Tsu - for 3 reasons (maybe more): 1) to not have to pay for barracks in our cities on this contenant; 2) to deny it from anyone else, especially the lost civs; 3) Trip had argued that we don't need it, unless we are planning to crank out mil units everywhere, but the barracks also allow quick healing and SOMEDAY, we will be at war with one or more of the Lost Civs and already having this advantage would be a great boon. #2 FP - but we will need to have the city that we are going to place it in moved and that won't be ready until around the end of the war, at this point in time. So the next pick might take presedence. #3 Great Lighthouse - also for the abaility to get our galleys closer to the other contenent and the move of 4 (really good for exploreing into the deep water). E_T

These are my picks in the same order as ET labeled them. #4 would be an Army.

	14-08-2003 00:47									#18
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Please see my post in the "suicide galley" thread about the usefulness (or TOTAL lack thereof) of the Great Library in MP. To briefly summarize and reiterate:

As soon as the Library goes up, the other teams will make "no trade until Education" treaties, divide up the research tree, and ensure that the only things we get are Monotheism and Theology from the Library.

It will also guarantee CONSIDERABLE ill-will towards us. This is a situation that as a MP I can assure you I have dealt with many, many times - and I've only built the Library once, if that tells you something.

	14-08-2003 02:46									#19
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Really late for the Great Libary considering the civs we already have contact with.

Colosus is a cheap GW, we shouldn't waste a leader on it.

Oracle is liable to expire fairly soon.

If we feel that we really need the Great Wall, we shouldn't be declaring war in the first place.

No to Great Light House as well, our land mass is too large for that to be really useful.

There is a possibility (athough small) that Sistine's Chapel or Leo's may become adviable.

#1 : Sistine's Chapel
#2 : Sun Tzu
#3 : Leo's
#4 : Army (For Heroic Epic)
#5 : Hanging Gardens
#6 : Forbiden Palace

	14-08-2003 02:56									#20
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I lean towards using the GL for a medieval wonder:
The Colussus and the Great Lighthouse are cheap wonders, no need to spend a GL on them.
The Great Library is not so great in MP, as MZ points out.
The Oracle is not useful because it expires so early, and we might not get Monarchy for a long time for all we know, so the Hanging Gardens might not even be an option.
I think a good wonder like Sun Tzu, Leo's or Sistine is worth more than an army. The FP we should try to build ourselves.

	14-08-2003 03:00									#21
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I agree with Arnelos.
#1: Army, then build heroic..
#2 Forbidden Palace

	14-08-2003 03:07									#22
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I want to meekly point out that the Great Library is not as bad a choice as everyone is making it out to be (consider: if we get other teams to research in attempts to foil us, we slow down the tech pace!). But since I think our top two options are the FP and the Lighthouse, I'll find this battle some other time.


Dominae

	14-08-2003 03:12									#23
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Oh, and since we're on the topic of Wonders: if we get our Great Leader toward the end of researching on Engineering, we should definitely consider getting Invention at the fastest possible rate and rushing Leo's. The Workshop has proved its extreme importance to me in almost every MP game I've ever played.


Dominae

	14-08-2003 03:42									#24
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I can't say what to choose, as who knows when the leader would arrive.

early: army
late: lighthouse/fp/palace

army won't be needed if there is not much fighting left, lighthouse will be useful (nearly a necessity) to get off this rock and useful for positioning troops to move on CFC.

	14-08-2003 03:52									#25
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My choices:

1) Great Lighthouse (we really cannot afford to wait all those turns to build it ourselves. Once this war is over we need to immediately get contact with the other civs)
2) Army to then build Epic
3) FP
4) Sun Tzu

--Togas

	14-08-2003 06:08									#26
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Depends on the timing.

If we just started the war, probably Sun Tze or Army. Sun Tze because it allows our attacking unit to recover the strength in just captured cities, and Army because GCA probably has 1 or 2 Armies themselves.

If we are in the middle of the War and capture, say Catchpolis, then FP could be quite handy. We would have a big piece of land, and building the FP can improve our productivity immensely.

If we are close to the end of the War, then Lighthouse, and FP, or we can keep it for Leo.

	14-08-2003 07:07									#27
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To early to say:
1) Lighthouses value depends on the results of our suicide galleys.
If we already have contact, then its more or less useless.

2) The art of war has long term value. We can't go wrong with it.

3) Leonardo's worth can be expressed in gold, but at least its a lot of gold. By the end of the game it'd probally save of several thousand gold. Still, I don't know that its the best investment of a leader.

4) If the leader is at the very end of the war and we have contact and it looks like we may advance fast due to trades, then it may be worth saving for the sistines. Especially if we are going to be at peace and not losing additional chances for leaders.

5) The other ancient era wonders: wall, gardens, collosus, library, oracle aren't worth even considering IMO.

6) Forbidden palace: We can't go wrong here either.

7) Army: Given two factors this may not be a bad idea:
1) We are likely to be able to use it to help against CFC (or GCA if early enough), immediate pay off.
2) If we conquer our entire continent and want to go to war on another, then armies built by the academy could potentially be decent assets at breaking through heavy defenses when landing. Not to mention the culture & possible additional leaders of the epic. Thus a long term benefit.

So really I think its between 5 choices for me:

Forbidden Palace: No question its a good choice.

Art of War: No question its a good choice.

Army: No question its a good choice. If we get a leader on one of the opening attacks on GCA, then I think this is clearly the best choice as it will help against their armies.

Lighthouse: If we dont have contact. This doesn't mean I think its the best choice if we don't have contact, just that its worthless once we do.

Sistine: Only a very slim chance this will be an option. We'd have to already have contact with the other continent, have a reason to think our tech advance is going to be rapid, and get the leader on the last or almost the last turn of the GCA war, and be reasonably comfortable with there not being a CFC follow up pre-theology.



Side issue:
If we build an army do we put mercs in it, Mid. Infantry in it, horseman in it, or a mixture? I could see the value of any of
the above actually (except for horses + non-horses I guess).

	15-08-2003 01:41									#28
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Best early midevil choice would be an all Mid Inf army if we have the tech.

Horsemen would be a poor choice, that would prevent them from being upgraded to Knights which is right around the corner.

	21-09-2003 08:58									#29
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As we are now a few turns away from the actual start of the war, I'm bumping this thread.

MoI E_T

	22-09-2003 21:09									#30
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I stand by the same ranking order as before in this thread on August 13, and just note that items I did not rank are even worse options now than when I posted.