14-08-2003 03:38									#31
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Are Galleys only good in numbers and with the aid of the Great Lighthouse?

I think we can do some real harm with just that one Galley. I also think that the worse thing that could happen to us right now is for our attack on GCA to fizzle. I'm not saying one Galley and one Swordsmen will win the war...that's not really the right way to look at it. Rather, I'm saying that we're sure to make use of our units if they come back home, and we do not have this certainty if we lemming them off across the oceans.


Dominae

	14-08-2003 03:49									#32
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

IMO, the chances that *1* galley thrown into ocean will find anything useful and survive to then make contact are extremely slim. The fact that the galley has a swordsman on it just compounds to the sheilds we're throwing away because we "have nothing better to do" with them.

Come on, this is not sensible management of our units and our resources. I might do this in a SP game because I'm done using the galley and don't want to waste time moving it back home, but this is a very serious MP game and we may need that galley 10+ turns from now and wish we had it.

Hell, it could even turn out to save our asses if we need to move units quickly to the front late in the war. That galley can operate in the inland sea to shift units, resupply, and to give us valuable field intel.

Save it. It'll do us more good back at home than sitting on the bottom of the ocean.

--Togas

	14-08-2003 04:17									#33
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

How long will it take to get the galley back to useful territory if we don’t send if off on a suicide mission? It just seems a waste to let it sit there off the coast of China.

	14-08-2003 04:18									#34
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by pikesfan How long will it take to get the galley back to useful territory if we don’t send if off on a suicide mission? It just seems a waste to let it sit there off the coast of China.

17 turns to return to the chokepoint, 22 to get to Balance of Power, or 20/21 to get back to Hispanica.

	14-08-2003 04:19									#35
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

It can be back to the choke point just about at the time of, or just after D-Day. It depends on how long we build up.

It would be arriving in good time to assist with flanking actions in the event that we do not move straight and steady to Catchopolis. I will post a better time line a bit later.

	14-08-2003 06:53									#36
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Trip GS had a few more Galleys against Vox than we have, and they also had the Lighthouse. If we could build the same number of Galleys GS did and use them how they did, then I would be scraping together every Galley we could possibly get. But we have 2 far-flung Galleys, 1 arrives back at home in 17 turns, the other in 22 with no plans to build more and the main focus on a massive blitzkrieg. That is not a situation in which Galleys are vital. I also don't see where numbers like 1:30 come from. Do you really think we have a 3% chance of finding something with the Galley? I would put it closer to 50% to find something, and 50% to get there.

Please tell me you haven't been this ridged in your planning in general. I wasn't suggesting that we could do something like was done in the GS Vox war. IMHO the lesson of that war (regarding galleys) was that creative use of galleys can be very effective. Just because we won't be able to mount a sea invasion doesn't make the galley useless.
We all know that plans fall apart and need on-the-spot adaptation. What better tool do we have available to facilitate adaptation then two galleys (or even one)?

Regarding numbers: It doesn't really matter, we're all going to put forward relatively reasonable numbers that match our opinion. My point was that we to compare the galley value to the difference in value between finding the other civs now vs. after the war. IMHO that difference does not justify throwing away a galley.

	14-08-2003 07:10									#37
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

PoA to Fortress of the Possums: 13 turns (12 t +1 tile)
to s whale 6: 4 turns

to the southern corner: 3 turns
back to s whale 6: 5 turns

13-4=9 turns to FoP from s whale 6

3+5+9=17 turns to FoP (16 t +1 tile)

1 turn is already gone.

s whale is the southern of the twin whales.

Forces and DDay

Anarchy: 3 turns (1 turn already gone)

3 turns anarchy
8 turns upgrading
--
11 turns minimum to d-day.

current force: sword(mi)/horse/merc 10/3/1
*ready in 11 turns

desired force: 18/6/6
needed: 8/3/5

code:
spt for key cities:
     turn           5             10             15
Apolyton: 0 0 0  8  8 10 12 12 12 12 12 12 12 12 12
                      mr          mi          mi

Mingapul: 0 0 0  8  8  8 08 10 10 10 10 10 10 10 10
                         mr          mi          mi

Incensit: 0 0 0 08  8  8  8  8 08  8  8  8 08
                mr             mi          mr

Bananato: 0 0 0  7  6  6  6  6  6  6  6  6  6 06  6
                 T              B             mr

BigFurCt: 0 0 0 13  3  3  3  3  3  3  3  3
13 from chop                             T

Hispanic: 0 0 0  3  3  3 13  3  3  3  4  4
13 from chop                       T

	14-08-2003 10:22									#38
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by BigFree ET: Please explain why the point I picked would not be a good launch point. Keep in mind that any point is actually a guess anyways, and that any other point we would have to travel to get to (lost turns.) PoA is near to my proposed launch location now.

A Few things:
I suspect that it's a bit too far south
I think that (IF this map is modded) that it would be set up so as the current location (where one would likely figure as the best place to do this) has been made to possibly fail.
A hunch....

E_T

	14-08-2003 20:03									#39
	Inflate your Upload Space

I don't want to beat a dead horse here, but I'd also like to note that GCA has 2 luxuries (their only dyes, and only furs) and 2 strategic resources (their only horses, and perhaps their only connected Iron besides the one we will quickly take) on costal tiles. These are all excellent sea landing targets, maybe they're defending them, maybe they're not, but depriving them of 2 luxuries at he opening of war could delay effective counter measures by a few turns. If we could actually land a NM on their mountain Iron, we could certainly make them bleed to retake it. They're probably defending that, but it might be worth a check.

	14-08-2003 21:47									#40
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Good points all around. This is why we need to discuss these things before we do some things that can't be called back.

E_T

	14-08-2003 22:04									#41
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

If we could whip 4 or 5 Galleys together, then I'd be first in line to launch some amphibious invasions to cut off luxuries and resources, pillage tiles and generally wreak havoc. But we don't have enough to make a major impact and any forces we land in such small numbers would be killed pretty quick unless they sit on a mountain, where they couldn't do much.

	14-08-2003 22:17									#42
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

If the mountain they're sitting on happens to contain their only source of Iron, I would consider the unit(s) to be doing enough.

	14-08-2003 22:23									#43
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

They would probably then connect the iron 3 tiles from their capital and very deep inside their territory.

	14-08-2003 22:27									#44
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Agreed; in MP games, I'm best known for my love of resource-deprivation tactics, but they simply aren't an option here- iron on Apolytonia (the future name of OUR continent) is like fleas on a dog around here.

	14-08-2003 22:32									#45
	Remove this text

Also, if we cut their iron they could just build 1-turn Warriors then mass-upgrade them after they reconnect the iron. Last thing we need is for them to insta-upgrade 5 Swords as we approach. Let them build the more expensive Swords... lately they've been focusing more on commerce so they could probably get a healthy 32-35 gold per turn which is nice for upgrading, especially if they have a good treasury in addition to what they can produce per turn.

	14-08-2003 23:15									#46
	Suffering from ads?

That strategy would be available to them anyway, and it is very likely they will use it. 2 fortified NW on a mountain would cost them at least 5 swords. I would vastly prefer to go through the bother of pillaging the tile myself then ousting NM on a mountain.

Note that I'm pushing this particular idea. The iron is particularly far away, and there is a very good chance that they have a unit (or more) protecting it. The point is even two galleys can prove a real asset if used correctly.

	15-08-2003 02:32									#47
	Increase the size of your Attachments

It could. Perhaps using the Expedition for this duty is not a bad choice....

	15-08-2003 04:50									#48
	Increase Your PM Length

Placing the 2 swords that we have on it, one to fortify and the other to raze the road would be really good. Even if they got rid of them immeadiately, they would have to either build a colony or reroad it.

E_T

	15-08-2003 09:21									#49
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Bloody hell!

Barely a day away and a new issue comes up, the discussion thread is quickly superceded and it goes straight to poll! Am I the only one who things we should actually allow time for discussion before a poll?

Whatever the result of this poll it is clear that we are VERY divided on this issue, and that is not going to go away without some calming down and some rational discussion, where ideas can be exchanged by more than a few outspoken teammembers.

I see amongst those who disagree with the suicide idea is at least one Consul - theoretically the turns could be played with complete disregard to the decision of this poll - but that is not what should happen. What I hope will happen ( and I will push to happen) over the next turn or two until we sort this out is we commit to NEITHER sending Galleys away for exploration NOR suiciding them.

	15-08-2003 12:57									#50
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Look, all I hear is we can do this with the Galley or we can do that with the Galley (concerning the war). Please, give a specific plan for the Galley(s) and their respective crews before blowing off the mission to find the other Civs.

If I saw a plan, that was coherent and rational about how those units would be more of a benefit to us in our war against GCA I would listen. A strong counter point I have is that if these Galley(s) are so important to the war, then why don't we build more for the war itself?

To me, the benefit of finding the other teams far outwieghs the risk we are taking in sending them out to the open ocean. But, I can be made to change my mind if ther's a firm military plan showing the use of the Galley(s) we have in it.

	15-08-2003 17:54									#51
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I don't think there was any ill intent on the part of those pushing this through, there simply seems to be a general lack of acknowledgment that there are any negative aspects of this plain what so ever.

That said, if someone was to object to the validity of this poll they probably should have done so in the opening day. As fishy as the speed this poll was put up is, it is certainly much more fishy to decide to disregard it after the decision is obvious.

	15-08-2003 21:09									#52
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I have found many reasons why not to "push this through". I agree with the need for a suicide Galley mission if it is our only chance for contact before Navigation, but not until other missions and opportunities for crossings have been explored FULLY. I am unsatisfied by the amount of discussion put into examining these options and I just disagree with the utility of getting contact NOW.

Galleys are a tool, and we could only spare resources for two of them - it is stupid to throw away a tool before it's usefulness has ended. This is NOT the only use left for our Galleys, and we will likely not be getting any more anytime soon, so let's use our Galleys for more than just the slim chance of a contact that benefits us with nothing right now.

I would vote YES to suicide Galleys if necessary. Partly due to dissatisfaction with the thoroughness of discussion and partly due to the fact suicide now is not the only option, I have to vote no to suiciding right now.

	16-08-2003 00:41									#53
	Tired of ads?

With our Republic GA I'm positive we could afford to build a few more Galleys for further exploration.