13-08-2003 21:23									#1
	Official Poll: Suicide Galleys Increase Your PM Length

Official bill of the state. Vote with your heart.

Please view this thread for discussion.

Poll lasts for 3 days.

	13-08-2003 22:18									#2
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Please look at this map before you vote.

I am uncertain at this point as to if we should do this, but I do think that we should try at a different point on the coastline.

MoI E_T

	13-08-2003 23:01									#3
	Get a bigger avatar today!

I'm a bit uncertain as well. While it would be nice to be able to be the only trade parter with the other continent, do we really want them to know what is going on over here?

Another thing to think of comes from the great leader thread. If we get a GL and build the Great Library. We can try to hold off contact for as long as we can (in which we can run at 40 turn research) and then grab all the techs of the other continent at once (and possibly get the tech slingshot effect that goes beyond education).

Since there is no abstain vote I am going to vote 'no'. But if it passes anyway I'd say go with the caveat of starting the galley from a different location from where it is now.

	13-08-2003 23:16									#4
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by Rhothaerill I'm a bit uncertain as well. While it would be nice to be able to be the only trade parter with the other continent, do we really want them to know what is going on over here?

Who's to say that we have to tell them? We will have contact with them, which means we give them the info we choose to.

quote: Another thing to think of comes from the great leader thread. If we get a GL and build the Great Library. We can try to hold off contact for as long as we can (in which we can run at 40 turn research) and then grab all the techs of the other continent at once (and possibly get the tech slingshot effect that goes beyond education).

How many techs lead up to Education?

And besides, it would be ideal to maintain the tech pace, rather than catch up to a certain point (not neccesarily tech parity even), which we cannot do by maintaining 40 turn techs for very long, even if we build the Library.

	13-08-2003 23:59									#5
	Support Apolyton

"Yes" - but only after carefully considering the exact location.

	14-08-2003 00:00									#6
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Unfortunately I can't manually change my vote, but I've rethought the value of the Great Library based not on the possibility that we could get a bunch of techs from other civs but the probability that it wouldn't happen that way.

So take a vote from 'no' and add it to 'yes'

	14-08-2003 00:06									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Trip Who's to say that we have to tell them? We will have contact with them, which means we give them the info we choose to.

People/teams get very suspicious when you withhold information from them, and sometimes get downright angry. In order to avoid any bickering and bad press, I think it would be best to sell contacts once we meet the lost civs...for a very "reasonable" price, of course.

I'm going to delay voting in this poll, as I need to check exactly what else we could be doing with the Princess. Have we explored the coastal waters as much as we can do so safely?


Dominae

	14-08-2003 00:14									#8
	Get a bigger avatar today!

In MP play the GL is very weak. The other teams, once they find out we have it, will simply trade techs/research techs in a way that cause them to keep up with us. They will also purposely not trade certain techs so as to prevent us from getting it for free.

With the AI the GL is pretty good to have; not so against human opponents.

ET: Please explain why the point I picked would not be a good launch point. Keep in mind that any point is actually a guess anyways, and that any other point we would have to travel to get to (lost turns.) PoA is near to my proposed launch location now.

Obviously, I voted Yes.

	14-08-2003 00:23									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Dominae People/teams get very suspicious when you withhold information from them, and sometimes get downright angry. In order to avoid any bickering and bad press, I think it would be best to sell contacts once we meet the lost civs...for a very "reasonable" price, of course.

We may or may not sell contacts/maps, though it's obviously in our best interests to keep as much information to ourselves as we can.

What are they going to do, ask us who killed CDG and GCA? We can tell them we don't know, though they can probably guess for themselves. I view it as unlikely that they'll get mad if we don't fork over our valuable intel which is rightfully ours.

	14-08-2003 00:24									#10
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by E_T Please look at this map before you vote. I am uncertain at this point as to if we should do this, but I do think that we should try at a different point on the coastline.

Note that the poll only asks if we want to send the POA west on a suicide attempt. It doesn't specify a specific launch site, just whether or not we should attempt it. The exact launching point can be determined later. Though I would assume we would head in a wester-ly direction, rather than south or something like that.

	14-08-2003 00:27									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

BigFree, re where to go from.

There are often large oceans above or below continents. Going from the extreme South adds to the odds that we would be sailing into a void.

Especially with the shape of this map, I would expect the other land mass to be concentrated in the North.

If we go, and it looks like most everyone disagrees with me so we will be going, we should pick the spot that is most likely to yield results. E_T's spot is not a bad choice. Still, the far North remains to be scouted. There may well be islands up there.

	14-08-2003 00:29									#12
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Trip

Are you having some form of epileptic fit?

	14-08-2003 00:31									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

I was thinking east.

Unfortunately it's impossible to determine where the "best" point is. We can only guess. In the last SP game I played (MZO's Boot Camp II) I sent a suicide galley off and missed an outlying Carthage island by three tiles to the south. It was another few turns of sweating a sinking before I finally made contact.

	14-08-2003 00:35									#14
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Are you having some form of epileptic fit?

Come now NYE, don't need to get bitter because people disagree with you. ()

	14-08-2003 00:39									#15
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Let me chime in with a "REALLY BAD IDEA" tag on the Great Library issue- speaking as someone who has done this countless times - I view opponents wasting the turns on the Great Library as a huge boon to my chances of winning. We build the Great Library, and this is what'll happen:

GWT to CGN: Wow, how annoying. Tell you what, you research this, this, and this, and we'll research that, that and that. When we get Education, we'll trade and shut those guys out after we make their Library obselete. Until then, just hang on to your techs for a bit.

CGN to GWT: Good plan! And while we're at it, let's start developing plans to "thank" those lil' sneaky thieves from Apolyton, trying to get our research from us.

I would stake my reputation (whatever it may be) and 50 bucks on that conversation happening in some form.

The Great Library is a MASSIVE sucker bet in MP. We will get NOTHING from it, unless the other teams are very stupid - and given that the other teams are probably smart enough to hit on a "Wait until Education" treaty in the immense amount of time they'll have to consider it, the only thing getting the Great Library will give us is considerable ill will.

Listen to the MP fiend on this one. Abandon any thoughts of the Great Library.

	14-08-2003 00:42									#16
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Fried-Psitalon Listen to the MP fiend on this one. Abandon any thoughts of the Great Library.

I have. It just took me a little longer to think through it.

	14-08-2003 00:50									#17
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Trip Come now NYE, don't need to get bitter because people disagree with you. ()

Actually, I was kind of wondering about your consistent use of it lately. Especially when you were telling Dominae and vondrack how the GrLib works, when you had no clue what you were talking about. I thought that was funny.

I think someone else mentioned that the use of them, and my shot at you about being French were not what he expected to be reading.

I would have thought that you would respect the wishes of other people, and not be so in your face to people you disagree with while you are being both cocky and wrong. That's what I thought.

	14-08-2003 00:52									#18
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

ENOUGH. Both of you need to pack it up and take it somewhere else. Neither of you are blameless, and this sort of sniping is wasting our time. KNOCK IT OFF.

	14-08-2003 00:55									#19
	Support Apolyton

Thank you, F-P. I for one will admit that I am at fault here as well. On the bright side. This forum is smoking. Not all bad.

	14-08-2003 00:57									#20
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

I'm not insulting anyone so I take no blame in that.

	14-08-2003 01:01									#21
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Trip, you need to learn when to accept error. It's one of the traits of manhood. You can take that as an insult, or the fact it was intended to be. You're only hurting your own point of view lately.

Seriously though - we are all possessed of considerable Civ-gifts in our different realms, and wasting our time waving barbs rather than pointing out the true and false of theories isn't good for anyone. I don't care who's to blame, I just want it to stop- I'm reading 9 different full forums a day right now. Eugh. Hehe.

The poll for the suicide galleys is up, there is considerable merit to both points of view, both sides have represented the issue excellently. I weighed the matter for a decent amount of time before I voted. The poll is moving along, now let's consider other issues of importance. Nothing is personal around here.

Group hug. Now let's figure out how to claim this continent. I sitll want to be named after the unit that sacks Meiertopia.

And given what some of the other threads have been pointing out in scoring, we may have to move fast to claim that right. Back to work!

	14-08-2003 01:18									#22
	Got spare money?

Has anyone ever succeeded in finding a new contented with a blind shot on your first try? I haven't really kept track, but I think my record is probably about the third attempt (with an average of about 5 lost galleys), and I've had probably 10+ games where I've sent out galleys like this. Finding a continent in this way is a peacetime project, not a pre-war crap shot.

Also, that galley could come in very useful in the right situation if used creatively.

I'd love to give this a try, but it's a waste. Don't gamble with your rent money.

	14-08-2003 02:18									#23
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

I've found other continents first try before.....

I voted go for it. Like I posted in the other thread, I consider this analagous to buying a lottery ticket for $1 with a 1 in 30 shot of winning $1000. Sure we'll probally lose, but the cost is low and the potential pay off is high, and the odds aren't that bad.....

	14-08-2003 02:29									#24
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Aren't we going to need every galley we've built for the war for a landing?

	14-08-2003 02:34									#25
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Nope, we have no concrete plans for Galleys in our war plans. They would be used only if our war were to bog down against GCA. The travel time to get back home then to be able to drop off troops makes this prohibitive in any other case.

	14-08-2003 02:45									#26
	Get a bigger avatar today!

In SP games, the cost of a Galley is usually "low". In this game, the cost is rather "high", because we do not know exactly how many units we will need to efficiently take care of GCA. The fear is that we will not have enough gas to accomplish our current plan. Given the strategic value of Galleys in Ancient warfare, I can more than understand nye's reticence at just sending it off to its probable doom.

I'm rather surprised Trip does not feel the same way. If I were MoW, I would be quite worried about our upcoming prospects in war.


Dominae

	14-08-2003 02:45									#27
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I can see that a galley would be usefull in the war, but are we planing to use galley drops in the war? [Edit: Bigfree answered this, I didn't see it at first] If not, we wont have much use for this galley anymore and we could just as well send it of to suicide...

Btw: we could build a new galley very fast when we are in the golden age.

I vote yes.

	14-08-2003 02:50									#28
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by BigFree The travel time to get back home then to be able to drop off troops makes this prohibitive in any other case.

I believe we've been through this already. Matching up the ETA on our attack and the time it would take Princess to get close the the "action" shows that Princess (and her Swordsmen) would definitely come back in time.

So, yes, this is very much a decision concerning whether or not we can spare a Galley and a Swordsmen in the upcoming war. This is an issue even if Princess does not sink (although we would all probably agree if we knew for certain we would not lose her).


Dominae

	14-08-2003 03:18									#29
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Just to build on what Dominae stated, perhaps some of the proponents of this plan should re-asses the value of galleys in a MP game, particularly one with such a high level of planning.

What if we could drop off a pike onto a mountain to cut off the slaughter of 4 knights? It's a wild card, a unit that can be moved quickly and dropped off anywhere on the shore.
If nothing else it's a check on their back, if we have no navy they are free to basically abandon their rear allowing greater force concentration.

The assessment of 1:30 for finding the continent is probably about right, but I highly disagree with the 1:1000 comparative values. First we can't compare the value of finding the new continent to the value of the galley in the war, we have to compare the difference in the value of finding the other continent now vs. finding the continent latter to the value of the galley in the war. ratio = (Value of Galley in War)value of finding continent now) - (value of finding continent latter).
If we set the value of the galley in the war to one, I would guess (offhand, no quantitative analysis) 1:30 - 25 = 1:5. So your buying a 1$ loto ticket with a jackpot of $5 and your chances are 1:30... not so great.

It is very unlikely that another civ will send out such a galley and get lucky, therefore we should still be in the running to be the first after the war.

I'd also like to note that perhaps NYE's and Dominae's perspectives are affected by the highly effective use of galleys in the internal MPDG.

	14-08-2003 03:25									#30
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

GS had a few more Galleys against Vox than we have, and they also had the Lighthouse. If we could build the same number of Galleys GS did and use them how they did, then I would be scraping together every Galley we could possibly get. But we have 2 far-flung Galleys, 1 arrives back at home in 17 turns, the other in 22 with no plans to build more and the main focus on a massive blitzkrieg. That is not a situation in which Galleys are vital.

I also don't see where numbers like 1:30 come from. Do you really think we have a 3% chance of finding something with the Galley? I would put it closer to 50% to find something, and 50% to get there.