14-08-2003 09:49									#1
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http://hotwired.lycos.com/webmonkey...ml?tw=authoring

If you remember we had a discussion a while ago about whether or not to use frames, and much criticism arose against using tables for page designing.

Well I invite you to look at the following easy manual, that will get you started on bringing back the control over your webpage without any evil tables.

quote: Page 1 God, I love tables. Tell me if you can't relate: I start out with my table tags and make them, um, 600 pixels wide. Then I do my first row with four <td> cells. I'll put my content in the last one - those first three are just placeholders for later. Oh wait, it's not taking my <td> widths. Oh, well. I'll put a spacer GIF in there. Now I'll do my second row. Oh, hold on. I didn't put in enough placeholder <td> tags. I'll have to go back and add some more. No, wait! I'll just make one of the <td> tags colspan=2. There, that does it. Now I'll put some images in and ... darn! The images aren't lining up flush. What's going on? I'll turn off all the cell padding. Shoot! That's still not working. Oh, that's right. I remember now. You can't have any spaces or line breaks in the table. So I'll have to put it all on one line. Let's see... MAN this sure makes it hard to read. .....

http://hotwired.lycos.com/webmonkey...ml?tw=authoring

	14-08-2003 09:55									#2
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I agree. I use FrontPage for my web editing since HTML is a drag for me, but try to accomodate as much as I can with CSS. It seems every day I learn something new about CSS which is extreeeeeeeemely powerful and can do practically everything you can imagine.

Interesting that just before reading this I was making tests with CSS on tables in my site

	14-08-2003 09:57									#3
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Just what's so bad about tables anyway?

	14-08-2003 09:58									#4
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btw, those Overflow commands are awsome! Makes frames all but useless...

	14-08-2003 09:59									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Just what's so bad about tables anyway?

Since I use FrontPage, tables are no problem, but making tables from scratch in HTML is incredibly confusing if you ask me.

	14-08-2003 10:01									#6
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Just takes some getting used to and the proper mindset.

	14-08-2003 10:01									#7
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CSS positioning works on the current version of both major browsers, and is still in consideration by the W3C.

Is this a bit out of date?

I recommend reading a few articles by Eric Meyer and getting a CSS sidebar for your browser. That's all you need.

In Opera, go to http://devedge.netscape.com/toolbox...rop-visual.html, rightclick among the hotlist (F4) tabs, and choose Add Panel...

	14-08-2003 10:03									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Just what's so bad about tables anyway?

They are a kludgey hack. Just because you and I have been using them for years doesn't mean they are a good solution for the problem of laying stuff out.

	14-08-2003 10:05									#9
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I made my website with a bunch of tables sometime last year. It's begging to be redone but I'm too lazy to get around to doing it.

	14-08-2003 10:06									#10
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Tables: grid-based positioning of content.
What we're aiming for: grid-based position of content.

Kludgey hack is where?

CSS is different, personally I've always found it to be quite annoying compared to straight HTML. Just a personal preference.

Much like I prefer Notepad to Word, I prefer HTML to CSS.

	14-08-2003 10:18									#11
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I like your method Asher

It will load faster and has a greater chance of success of loading correctly on every browser

Plus it's easier to edit

	14-08-2003 11:05									#12
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Well, when you have tables inside of tables inside of tables in an attempt to lay things out it's annoying and near impossible to figure out if you go back to edit it. Which is how my website was. But I went through tonight and converted to CSS positioning (it was actually easier than I thought) and now things are a lot easier to work with and change.

	14-08-2003 11:46									#13
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quote: Tables: grid-based positioning of content. What we're aiming for: grid-based position of content.

I'm sure you'd agree that a grid of ScreenWidth x ScreenHeight pixels, overwhich to place any HTML element, using "left : x; top: x; position: absolute" would be much more gridlike and exact, when it comes to serious grid-like positioning.

Furthermore, who says that having every page on the web look like a frigging table/ form, is good?

	14-08-2003 12:07									#14
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Here's another good page with examples on CSS: http://www.w3schools.com

it's the reference I use when editing my CSS pages

	14-08-2003 14:30									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Tables: grid-based positioning of content. What we're aiming for: grid-based position of content. Kludgey hack is where?

It's kludgey because tables are not meant to be used for doing layouts. It's like using duct tapes to fix chair legs: it works, but you're not using the right tools.

	14-08-2003 14:32									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker I like your method Asher It will load faster and has a greater chance of success of loading correctly on every browser

No it's not. Each browser tend to render tables differently, plus rendering complicated tables takes a very long time.

quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker Plus it's easier to edit

Now we know you are not speaking from experience.

	14-08-2003 16:18									#17
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My band website:

http://www.sonicundermind.co.uk

Currently using tables (a bit) no spacer gif or any of that crap. Might convert it to CSS at some point but works fine as it is.

	14-08-2003 18:00									#18
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I use and like to use tables. They're fun.

Of course, it helps that I draw them on paper first then figure out what to type, rather than designing it while I write it.

	14-08-2003 19:28									#19
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Since I make my site (http://www.firstcultural.com/) in raw HTML, I use tables. A couple well-placed comment lines keep the thing clear for future editing.

	14-08-2003 19:31									#20
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Smiley,

You also got some other bad habits, like a splash page and a counter.

	14-08-2003 19:39									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker I like your method Asher It will load faster and has a greater chance of success of loading correctly on every browser Plus it's easier to edit

Actually, tables are slower to download and are harder to edit, at least in that they are more time consuming. CSS is now supported in 98.2% all browsers being used. Tables are the past, CSS is the future.

	14-08-2003 19:41									#22
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www.gliwa.org, no tables. My personal site needs to be redesigned, but since I'm employed right now, I don't have much of an incentive to do so.

	14-08-2003 19:45									#23
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You did that? Cool!

	14-08-2003 19:56									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger You did that? Cool!

Thanks. It's not as accessible as it should be, but I've learned a lot more about accessibility since I have been working here at Vistakon. I have become their global accessibility web site guru. I hardly do any design at all, just re-coding. When my contract is up I'm going to market myself as an accessibility expert, which is what I am now.

	14-08-2003 20:48									#25
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara When my contract is up I'm going to market myself as an accessibility expert, which is what I am now.

Usability expert as well.

Or perhaps CHI (Computer Human Interface) expert. Buzzword sells

	14-08-2003 21:26									#26
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The buzzword is HCI, UR, not CHI.

	14-08-2003 23:24									#27
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Maybe it's different over there in China.

	14-08-2003 23:34									#28
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Both are used, it's just that HCI is a lot more common.

It's because Human-Computer implies it's about the tecnologies that humans interact with to use computers.
Computer-Human implies technologies computers use to interact with humans.

Semantics.

	15-08-2003 06:30									#29
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Is CSS the top of the line or is there anything set to replace it?

	15-08-2003 09:45									#30
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Nope, CSS is top of the line.