15-08-2003 10:03									#1
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Please see the diplomatic chat logs thread to see what was actually said in the chats about this.

As for GoW's offer, they're scared of Gathering Storm and they'd much rather have our help against GS than have to fight us in Pamplona while also fighting GS. Given this, Aggie (who seems to be the GoW Emperor heir-apparent) and MasterZen have offered that we could keep our south if we help GoW against GS. GoW then promises a no-loophole NAP and promises to abide by it.

Togas and I agree this is absolutely worthless garbage, but I played along in chat to keep their hopes up in the event we'd like to play along for any tactical advantage it gives us and/or Gathering Storm for ND and GoW to believe we're at "peace".

I'd like input on that issue. Go read the discussion I had with NYE about it before doing so, but input is very welcome.

	15-08-2003 14:52									#2
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Well, the current situation is a bit complicated to me. I don't know if we have any chances to survive.

But I DON'T WANT ANY DEAL WITH ND AND/OR GOW.

Now, it's a fact that with 1 or 2 cities we can't compete with our ennemies. IMHO we must fight with our great army against ND while GS do the same against GoW. We must fight ASAP, otherwise we wouldn't had any chance in the short term.

BTW, I do prefer GS taking all our lands instead of ND/GoW.

I hope our defense minister could find the best way to smash those liars to smithereens

	15-08-2003 15:46									#3
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Screw GoW and ND AND the Horse they rode in on!!!

We will make no deals with them at all. We have 29 military units in and around Pamlona. We have 3 others spread out near Vigo. GS has many units and more on the way.

GS'es turn player did make a mistake this turn, they were supposed to offer NM back to us along with some gold. nye was very upset this did not happen, he will make sure we are offered some gold as well as NM on the next turn.

Yes, we have only two cities, but the are good ones, soon we will have both Toledo and NM back as well. These are all powerful producers.

All is not lost, we still have a good chance. ND and GoW are trying to re-group right now, they must have took some losses trying to wrench our cities from us. We must take this opportunity and strike back soon at them. GS is willing to march on them, so should we.

If we don't attack this turn (only because we determine it isn't wise), I'm ok with 'playing' along with GoW's peace plan to get them to feel at ease. Then we stab them hard when it counts.

Do not give up, do not surrender. We must now rally behind our troops and either vindicate ourselves or die trying.

GS might be willing to gift us one city on North Stormia in order to ensure our survival. I don't think this is needed, but what the heck.

I also SIM'ed out either going to Monarchy or Republic after going to Anarchy this turn, we do slightly better at Republic. But, since both cities went into civil disorder this turn, it is better for us to go into Anarchy this turn and come out of it the next turn into Republic once again so that we don't pay support cost this turn. We are at -14 gpt right now.

I was given permission to move two of our units on this turn. I move a spear and a Pike that were on their way to Salamanca from the Vigo area; this gave us some good intel.

Salmanca looks to be defended by only one damaged Rider. We could take back this city with a Knight or two and move some defensive forces there. Maybe 4 cats and 4 Pikes and the Knight that captures it. It has walls and is built on hills, so those units (at a defense value of 6+) should be able to stand up to the 4 Riders near it; two of those Riders are injured. Plus GS has Knights nearby that can counter against any other GoW Rider's or ND Ansars.

	15-08-2003 16:18									#4
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I think that we should kindly, remember GoW that it was not us who started this war and that it was not us that wanted GoW to ally with ND and thus choosing the wrong side.

It is GoW's fault that GS has become a thread to them.

We are allied with GS because they forced us to do so by conspiring against us with ND, so WE are not to blame that GS is threatening them, they are to blame for it. I think it is good for them that they get the punishment they deserve: their GA's used in a war and perhaps one day kicked of the continent or the world

Make it clear to them that if they want to have a chance on victory, they have to attack ND. Declaring war on GS is a ridiculous demand.

I hope to have worded my ideas enough by this.

Duke Aidun Cian of Zaragoza from his new temporary estate in Pamplona

Last edited by Aidun on 15-08-2003 at 17:26

	15-08-2003 17:46									#5
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Just after I wrote down my opinion, and I read the threads, I got pain in my heart. All you guys cannot imagine my anger, so great is it.

It may be a game, but this is what the war does to me:
1. It is stealing from me the ONLY place in Apolyton where I felt somewhat home.
2. It is breaking my pride.
3. It gives me the despairing feeling that evil is going to win. Which I CANNOT tolerate, but I have nothing to prevent it.
4. many other things of which I cannot think now.

MY GOD, PLEASE DO SOMETHING AND KILL THAT SCUM!

I dearly hope and pray that GS will win this game.


I have to stop now, the whole thing makes me very emotional.

Aidun

	15-08-2003 19:53									#6
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Aidun, I agree to you, and my sugestion that we tell GoW to shovel tehir cities and their peace deal deep in their @rses probably speaks for all I think. I was thinking right now, and We HAVE a chance to survive. ND and GoW are purposing peace cause last turn they got terribly overextended ehile capturing our southern cities. We must try to strike back ASAP. There are many possibilities, they may have seen they won´t be able to take Pamplona from us, they may also fear counterattacks and want to keep us considering peace this trun so as not to take advantage of tehir weakened position... I liked Big Free´s plan for counterattack, if we get that city, we kill riders. Killing riders must be done when they are at small numbers, and disperse, like now, not when they are grouped in an Uberstack. their foolishness was to think that taking our undefended south would make us scramble for peace in despair. This failed. We must take the oportunity, forth another one like this will be hard to spot. Also, ND has lost many ansars lately, and I don´t believe they´ll be able to attack or defend anything properly UNTIL THEIR REINFORCEMENTS ARRIVE; we must get those cities while this does not happens.

Please do not make blind ear to this and let us try to bring pain to them. I am sure they won´t risk to attack pamplona, they have no idea of what we´ve got in there, and they fear it.
By the way, we must take care with lego, they might be spying our cities for GoW, and this is a risk we are running.

	15-08-2003 20:19									#7
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Forget it! For Heaven's sake! Let's die like men! We've got no chance of survival now, but let's at least take down as many of these cowards as we can before we go under. Let's fight the good fight, shall we? If we were to betray Egypt now and ally with our enemies, we also go down, but we show that we ourselves were cowards. This can not be allowed.

Lord Toledo

	15-08-2003 20:51									#8
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The Glorians are lieing thieves. To paraphrase a great saying, "No one lies more than Glory of War". Their entire purpose in this game is to manipulate the other teams into battle against each other, and this shall not happen to us. Should we be fools for not accepting this, we will be brave fools. Should we be fools accepting it, we will be cowardly fools.

Stufpos Ingasmeat Mitchell
Sewfa Kengretardo Mitchell

	15-08-2003 23:06									#9
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GoW is cowering in fear of GS, but if they had not attacked us and had gone after ND, then and only then would they have been spared.

Kill Them all, God will know his own!!

Death to the ND and GoW heathens. Spain will fight to the last man....

E_T

	15-08-2003 23:13									#10
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Kill ´em all, let God sort ´em out

	16-08-2003 00:50									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Aidun It may be a game, but this is what the war does to me: 1. It is stealing from me the ONLY place in Apolyton where I felt somewhat home. 2. It is breaking my pride. 3. It gives me the despairing feeling that evil is going to win. Which I CANNOT tolerate, but I have nothing to prevent it. 4. many other things of which I cannot think now.

This is valid and, I believe, is something that we all feel. I know I certainly do. I often have to keep myself in check (and sometimes don't do a good job of it) to try to do my job rationally and reasonably.

My training IRL has taught me to always get the best possible deal and seek the best possible outcome, moral and emotional issues be damned. That's how I play diplomacy games, and that's been my general approach here -- do what I believe is best for Spain.

And I have to be honest, IF we could be guaranteed the south of Spain and given our freedom to keep playing and eventually start up the Reconquista, have our GA, and strike back ... these things are a great temptation to me and the logical part of me has given some thought to their offer.

But I cannot ignore the extreme loyalty and trust shown to us by GS, nor can I ignore the very loud cries of the leaders of Spain. This is not a time for opportunism, as I know that none of us would feel right about such acts. I know that if I asked each of you independently, each of you would very strongly tell me what GoW can do with their offer. I need say nothing more.

Perhaps we'll allow a the "negotiations" to progress a turn or two but nothing more. In the end, I will communicate to GoW that we prefer to fight, and fight we will. If we die here, let us take out as many of their soldiers as we can, and should GS choose to gift us a city on Estonia, let us continue to enact righteous vengence upon those who who kill the beloved of God.

Let us not stop until Spain is one day whole again, and the heathen mobs of betrayers and murderers are driven from our homes and our land, and then driven forever from this land!

--Togas

	16-08-2003 00:53									#12
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That's the spirit guys!!!!

Dang, I feel like playing the turn now so I can kill some Rider's!!! :righteous:

	16-08-2003 01:03									#13
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For some time I had lost my trust on many of our leaders. I had lsot the trust on this team. Thx Togas for that post, I feel like we are once again a very big family. Let us all get arms and kick some ass!!!

	16-08-2003 01:08									#14
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For the record, at no point have I ever considered any of GoW's offers to be worth backstabbing Gathering Storm. GS is a loyal ally and we have far more to be gained in trusting them than we will have to be gained in a gambit to trust GoW not to wipe us out in return for helping them. Even from a strictly non-emotional level, I don't trust GoW to come through on the agreement and I trust GS to come through on theirs if they are able.

That said, I decided that it might be of some TACTICAL advantage to play along with GoW if it means they will divert their forces from where they might send them if they thought we would fight. I'm unsure about the wisdom of this, which is why I've consulted NYE on that issue... it may or may not be tactically advantageous to throw GoW and ND off their balance with a false peace negotiation for a turn or two and I'd like to get that question answered before giving GoW an answer to their questions.

If we determine that there is no or neglible tactical gain from playing along, then we openly tell GoW to stuff it where the sun don't shine. If we can gain at least some level of tactical advantage, I'm more than willing to play with them only to then screw them over

I'm starting to lean toward there being little advantage to gain, however, so telling them to stuff it where the sun don't shine is getting more attractive.

	16-08-2003 01:13									#15
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The governor of Pamplona was asked by a journalist if he thought there could be forgiveness for ND and GoW.

He was quoted as saying: I believe that to forgive is the function of God. Our job is simply to arrange the meeting.

	16-08-2003 01:13									#16
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Yes, so that we can regain Salmanca this turn as well.

	16-08-2003 01:40									#17
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Thank you, Togas.

	16-08-2003 15:11									#18
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So much for fighting. Let's hole up, cover our eyes and hope all the mean guys go away.

	16-08-2003 15:21									#19
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quote: Originally posted by BigFree So much for fighting. Let's hole up, cover our eyes and hope all the mean guys go away.

I generally hate answering an argument with a quotation, but this one just works so well for the historical simularities...

"Never mind if they call your caution timidity, your wisdom sloth, your generalship weakness; it is better that a wise enemy should fear you than that foolish friends should praise"
- Livy (Roman historian, 59 B.C.E. - 17 C.E.), quoting Fabius (Roman general) in The War with Hannibal

	16-08-2003 16:30									#20
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I don't like it either that why I generally don't compare RL wars with Civ wars. This is a game with rules that must be followed, RL wars do not have rules. Caution when putting a person's life at risk is a lot different than in a game.

Besides, who says I'm foolish? Who's wise? Please...

	16-08-2003 16:41									#21
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My point is that many are letting their bloodlust cloud their reason.

Killing a few GoW units might seem great and will sate some of the appetite for blood around here, but the rewards simply are not worthwhile right now. Far more GoW units will die if they assault a single city with all of our units in it than they will if we go running off and splitting up our army. It's really a simple matter of concentration of force.

So let those being guided solely by bloodlust be upset and let foolish enemies (GhengisFarb, anyone?) laugh. The wise ones (Aggie?) are rightly afraid of what a stack of doom that stays concentrated means.

	16-08-2003 20:30									#22
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I certainly agree, Arnelos.

(Gag me with a spoon...not the BCE, CE stuff...)

Big Free,

The correct answer to your question is probably:

"I'm wise! I'm wise!"

To which you respond:

"Oh, you're wise are you? Well, what's the capital of Nebraska? What's the capital of the Chase National Bank?"

	16-08-2003 20:46									#23
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So the general consensus is to still tell Glory to shove their deal up their fat ass?

	16-08-2003 20:53									#24
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Check the Stuff It Thread, Mitchell.

	17-08-2003 00:25									#25
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I agree - shove it up their arse.

	17-08-2003 06:23									#26
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Does anyone know how the Japanese dealt with the US in the preamble to the assault on Pearl Harbor?

Japan was at war with the US. They met with the US and did peace negotiations. during these negotiations they had a cease fire, which allowed Japan to safely gather troops and prepare for attack.

I just thought that if we demand a cease fire for the turns that we do negotiations, could that possibly bring us an advantage, like it did to the Japanese?

We already agreed that the whole deal doesn't interest us and that we don't want to backstab GS, but making them think we consider their offer a great deal and that we are heavily debating it, that we require more time in order for the House of Lords to make a decision, etc, etc, gives us time and gives them time too, ofcourse

the question is then: is the fact that we get more time by having a cease fire with GoW while negotiating worth more or worth less than the fact that GoW has more time too?

I'm interested to hear about your view on this idea.

Aidun

	17-08-2003 07:12									#27
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Not being one of the game-players, but a watcher who is just here for the fun in the whole thing and to watch good players play, I am probably unclear about the issues (since I’ve been away for so long), but my view is that I would rather be part of an eliminated team honourably defeated in battle than one that limps on with two cities over the next two millennia or one that has its freedom of action circumscribed by having to be a vassal state. Where’s the fun in that?

I’m not saying that only winning is fun: the fun is being part of a team that can still compete with the other teams.

As for GoW, since I’ve got the impression they dragged us into this war and then stood by and let us be conquered, they deserve what they get from GS in the short run and ND in the long run. No peace with them: let’s go down fighting.

	17-08-2003 20:30									#28
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quote: Originally posted by pikesfan I would rather be part of an eliminated team honourably defeated in battle than one that limps on with two cities over the next two millennia or one that has its freedom of action circumscribed by having to be a vassal state. Where’s the fun in that? I’m not saying that only winning is fun: the fun is being part of a team that can still compete with the other teams.

We had a discussion about this with Godking. In the thread Not just pride.

In my post I explained how it feels te live in a vassalstate. There is at the end little wrong with your state being a vassalstate. It is not a great idea and of course it would be nicer to be totally independent and a significant power, but freedom and identity are most important.

Why we don't want to be a vassal of GoW, is simply because we do not like their team, their way of playing this game, their behaviour towards us and the fact they are satan's brood.

Aidun