15-08-2003 23:26									#31
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I think not supporting a flawed plan that could have contributed to the downward spiral the economy was in was one of the good things that took courage. Instead of agreeing to it and then trying to backslide on it like some of the current signatories.

	15-08-2003 23:26									#32
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I can wait until someone more knowledgeable about the environment and pollution, to answer my questions.

	15-08-2003 23:27									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Ming Thanks for proving my point. When it comes to the rabid foaming at the mouth bush bashers... real discussion is a waste of time. And the same holds true for bush is god bunch.

So why don't you post something balanced

	15-08-2003 23:28									#34
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun Doesn't it take a long period of time before pollution begins to have an impact? Isn't today's greenhouse effect due to the previous two centuries of increasing pollution?

Well you're partly right. Growth is a factor too, though. The pollution of 100 years ago counts not nearly as much in the equation as the pollution of 20 years ago. Just because there was so much more of it. And no...it doesn't really take that long a time to take effect. Greenhouse gasses block heat escaping the Earth after only a few years in the atmosphere, and oil, if spilled, has a pretty darn immediate efect.

Asmodean

	15-08-2003 23:30									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Asmodean Well you're partly right. Growth is a factor too, though. The pollution of 100 years ago counts not nearly as much in the equation as the pollution of 20 years ago. Just because there was so much more of it. And no...it doesn't really take that long a time to take effect. Greenhouse gasses block heat escaping the Earth after only a few years in the atmosphere, and oil, if spilled, has a pretty darn immediate efect. Asmodean

thanks

	15-08-2003 23:32									#36
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So push is responisble for oil spills?

The Kyoto deal was bad news, thats why he didn't sign it. Yet, there is still tons of money flowing out the government and into grants to fund alternative energy research... how many other countries are contributing as much to the solution as we are? Granted we cause most of the problem, but we wouldn't be able to solve it unless we did... sneaky little Catch-22

	15-08-2003 23:36									#37
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MrFun and RAH:
I'm not claiming Kyoto was perfect by any standard. I'm not claiming Kyoto would have saved the world of all the climatic catastrophes that await us.

But Kyoto was at last the first step in the right direction, which is to consider global warming as a serious, planetary problem that requires action and not only talk.

Because of Bush's stubbornness, this attempt has been ruined of all credibility. An international agreement will inevitably be reached at some point in the future, but the beginning of any significant planetary effort against global warming has been postponed to God knows when, because of Bush's decision.

And in the meantime, greenhouse gases will continue to run galore, and the climatic hazards will continue to increase.

Bush certainly did not create the upcoming climatic catastrophes. However, he contributed to worsen them. The cost of this will be thousands of lives (quite a few of them have already been claimed this year) And that is unforgivable .

	15-08-2003 23:38									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Even worse, despite the existence of technologies to reduce the production of greenhouse gases (hybrid or fuel efficient cars,

Do they not have car companies in Europe?

	15-08-2003 23:39									#39
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Oh, so the rest of the world really can't do anythin without the aide and assent of the US... I see.

	15-08-2003 23:40									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Japher Oh, so the rest of the world really can't do anythin without the aide and assent of the US... I see.

I only wish we had that much power.

	15-08-2003 23:42									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Japher Oh, so the rest of the world really can't do anythin without the aide and assent of the US... I see.

The rest of the world can't really fight efficiently global warming when its first contributor (the US) not only gives them the finger, but increases oil consumption because of the energy crisis in California.

quote: Do they not have car companies in Europe?

Yes, and these car companies produce smaller, more fuel-efficient cars than in the US. Besides, Europe is more advanced than the US for reduction of fuel use in most parts of the industry. But despite the existence of this technology, it hasn't been adopted in the US. Go figure...

	15-08-2003 23:43									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Bush certainly did not create the upcoming climatic catastrophes. However, he contributed to worsen them. The cost of this will be thousands of lives (quite a few of them have already been claimed this year) And that is unforgivable .

Yep... blame Bush for thousands of deaths for not going along with a stupid and poorly constructed treaty that wasn't even a good start at solving the problem.

What was unforgivable is the bunch of morons who put together the treaty thinking that it could solve the problem, and then bashing people who saw it for what it was... a bad idea that didn't solve the problem.

Standing up and saying no was a lot more honest and good then going along and make believing that it would make a big difference.

	15-08-2003 23:44									#43
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Actually, Spiffor, allthough I am generally very!! pro environment protection, I'd have to say that Bush did the right thing in not signing Kyoto. He did it for the wrong reasons, though.

The fact that Kyoto allows for trading of quotas from one country to another makes it not worth the paper it is written on. Developed countries can continue to produce greenhouse gasses to their hearts content, with qoutas bought from third world countries, which in turn prevents them from developing their industries. Kyoto is a step in the WRONG direction. It does nothing for global environment, but does a lot for halting developement in third world countries.

Asmodean

	15-08-2003 23:49									#44
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It is much easier for smaller countries to adhere to the restrictions the Kyoto Pact wanted to make. Countries with lower GDPs, Production rates, size (allowing for ease in PT est.), etc... If the US did what they wanted the whole world would be in an economic wasteland.. not to mention the lack of food that this would cause, and with everyone hot under the collar about GMs...

	15-08-2003 23:49									#45
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The CEOs of Big Oil should be tarred, feathered, flogged, and burned at the stake with gasoline as the flammable material.

Good posts, Spiff.

Ming, just admit it, YOUR WRONG!

	15-08-2003 23:49									#46
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Asmodean:
I thought this possiblity to buy quotas was rejected in the final draft, and that's precisely why it wasn't signed by Bush. I thought the idea of buying-selling quotas was precisely US' suggestion (with Japan's).

	15-08-2003 23:50									#47
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I still get a chuckle out of the fart tax.

	15-08-2003 23:52									#48
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No.. Kyoto was wrong. It did NOTHING. Admit it.

It wasn't worth the paper it was written on. It was a way a bunch of people could think they were doing something... pure politics at it's finest.

A real plan would be a different story... but Kyoto was a joke from the beginning...

Doing nothing under the guise of doing something is worse... it's a lie.

	15-08-2003 23:53									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor MrFun and RAH: I'm not claiming Kyoto was perfect by any standard. I'm not claiming Kyoto would have saved the world of all the climatic catastrophes that await us. But Kyoto was at last the first step in the right direction, which is to consider global warming as a serious, planetary problem that requires action and not only talk. Because of Bush's stubbornness, this attempt has been ruined of all credibility. An international agreement will inevitably be reached at some point in the future, but the beginning of any significant planetary effort against global warming has been postponed to God knows when, because of Bush's decision. And in the meantime, greenhouse gases will continue to run galore, and the climatic hazards will continue to increase. Bush certainly did not create the upcoming climatic catastrophes. However, he contributed to worsen them. The cost of this will be thousands of lives (quite a few of them have already been claimed this year) And that is unforgivable .

Bush isn't to blame for ignoring Kyoto. The American Senate voted 99-0 against it.

	15-08-2003 23:53									#50
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Spif: No...I'm pretty sure it's still in there. But off course now you have made me doubt

I'll check...

	16-08-2003 00:03									#51
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Here is article 6 of the Kyoto agreement:

quote: For the purpose of meeting its commitments under Article 3, any Party included in Annex I may transfer to, or acquire from, any other such Party emission reduction units resulting from projects aimed at reducing anthropogenic emissions by sources or enhancing anthropogenic removals by sinks of greenhouse gases in any sector of the economy, provided that: (a) Any such project has the approval of the Parties involved; (b) Any such project provides a reduction in emissions by sources, or an enhancement of removals by sinks, that is additional to any that would otherwise occur; (c) It does not acquire any emission reduction units if it is not in compliance with its obligations under Articles 5 and 7; (d) The acquisition of emission reduction units shall be supplemental to domestic actions for the purposes of meeting commitments under Article 3. 2.The Conference of the Parties serving as the meeting of the Parties to this Protocol may, at its first session or as soon as practicable thereafter, further elaborate guidelines for the implementation of this Article, including for verification and reporting. 3. A Party included in Annex I may authorize legal entities to participate, under its responsibility, in actions leading to the generation, transfer or acquisition under this Article of emission reduction units. 4. If a question of implementation by a Party included in Annex I of the requirements referred to in this paragraph is identified in accordance with the relevant provisions of Article 8, transfers and acquisitions of emission reduction units may continue to be made after the question has been identified, provided that any such units may not be used by a Party to meet its commitments under Article 3 until any issue of compliance is resolved.

Asmodean

	16-08-2003 00:04									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Japher It is much easier for smaller countries to adhere to the restrictions the Kyoto Pact wanted to make.

I guess that's why the EU was so eager to pass Kyoto... Fact is, rich countries can afford a global policy of reduction of greenhouse gases, and the EU was more ready than the US for it (better technologies and better implementation of them).
But to say the US would have been ruined, and ruined the world with them, because of such a technological adaptation is a fallacy.

Having the US produce less greenhouse gases doesn't require to stop the economic activity. It requires to adopt new technologies, many of those have already been developed and are already being in everyday use in other parts of the world (namely the EU and Japan). Such an adaptation has a cost, but nothing like "ruining the US" or "ruining the world".

I would be much less angered at your president if the US took serious steps to reduce greenhouse gases by itself (and not in the frame of a flawed Kyoto). However, except for a paltry raise of fuel-efficiency standards that doesn't bring any concrete change, and except for funding the same old research about fuel-cell, I don't see anything done.

	16-08-2003 00:06									#53
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"Ming, just admit it, YOUR WRONG! "

Actually, Ming is right. Kyoto was a rediculous treaty designed by foreigners to try bring the American economy down to par with the rest of the world. It was defeated 99-0 in the Senate.

	16-08-2003 00:08									#54
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Asmodean:
I stand corrected. This article indeed ruins the whole deal if it's in use. Do you know who buys pollution quotas ?

	16-08-2003 00:09									#55
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quote: Kyoto was a rediculous treaty designed by foreigners to try bring the American economy down to par with the rest of the world.

and people who believe this garbage are dumb...

It was a lame attempt by Greenie-Euros to enact an effective environmentally-friendly treaty.

But according to the dumb, the Euro's are conspiring to destroy America's economy.

	16-08-2003 00:12									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Asmodean: I stand corrected. This article indeed ruins the whole deal if it's in use. Do you know who buys pollution quotas ?

Yeah...last I heard, we (Denmark) would have to buy quotas if we are to meet out emission level goals for 2008

Asmodean

	16-08-2003 00:15									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Sava It was a lame attempt by Greenie-Euros to enact an effective environmentally-friendly treaty.

A very lame attempt... since it really didn't do anything.
The real sad part is that they continue to moan it's loss, and attack people who saw it for what it was... worthless.

	16-08-2003 00:19									#58
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quote: A very lame attempt... since it really didn't do anything. The real sad part is that they continue to moan it's loss, and attack people who saw it for what it was... worthless.

Yup... what I find hilarious is what Shi pointed out... how many people believe that Kyoto was a conspiracy to destroy America's economy....

Anyways, I'm not a fan of using international treaties to help the environment. The US should worry about the US... and likewise with Euro's. Make YOUR country a greeny paradise first, then worry about attacking other countries because of their policies. The greenies in the US have valid complaints about industry, pollution, and greenhouse gases. But pining over some impotent international treaty is just stupid.

	16-08-2003 00:24									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Sava Anyways, I'm not a fan of using international treaties to help the environment. The US should worry about the US... and likewise with Euro's. Make YOUR country a greeny paradise first, then worry about attacking other countries because of their policies. The greenies in the US have valid complaints about industry, pollution, and greenhouse gases. But pining over some impotent international treaty is just stupid.

Pollution does not obey national bounderies. If I was a Canadian I would be complaining about the crap puffed off of Detroit floating over Toronto. Contries have to work together.

	16-08-2003 00:31									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Sava Anyways, I'm not a fan of using international treaties to help the environment. The US should worry about the US... and likewise with Euro's. Make YOUR country a greeny paradise

That's what we are trying to do. But it is of little use if other countries don't do it. Global warming will have consequences for all of us, whether the culprit is the EU, the US, China or Mauritania...
This is precisely why international treaties are needed. We Euros could make a greeny paradise as much as we want, that wouldn't stop the possible desertification if the US continues to guzzle gas and to ignore the consequences.