16-08-2003 02:32									#91
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I am definitely not a rabid enemy of Bush foaming at the mouth. I appreciate his attempts to put AIDS on the international level as a serious problem. I appreciate him considering sending a peacekeeping force in Liberia. I appreciate him using a demand oriented economic policy (and I loathe the EU for not having done the same when the opportunity finally presented itself )

I wasn't aware the Senate rejected Kyoto before Bush's position about it. In this case, it is the whole American political system that is to blame for its vicious delay put on any international attempt to deal with global warming, and not only Bush.

However, Bush is the incarnation of doing nothing when it comes to energy and to oil consumption. Under his reign, nothing significant has been done for the US to reduce its production of greenhouse gases. Worse, even when there was a possibility to convince the public to drop some of its oil consumption (with the Saudi connections with Al Qaeda), Bush preferred to look for other sources including in the natural reserves, rather than to push for a reduction of oil consumption.

Coming from the most polluting country on Earth, and coming from a country that pollutes much more than its European economic counterpart, it is unforgivable. It is undoubtedly a "bad thing" Bush has done.

	16-08-2003 02:32									#92
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quote: Sava can only scream out Ad Hominems

quote: but less chill on the personal insults...

Sorry if people misinterpretted my posts as being personal, I didn't direct them at any poly member.

Shi, I think you have caught MrFun's victim complex.

Defeated? So you are saying Ming, Imran, and everyone else who agreed with me are wrong?

	16-08-2003 02:34									#93
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Don't drag me into this!

	16-08-2003 02:34									#94
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Don't drag me into this!

Sorry Imran... but Shi says we are wrong.

	16-08-2003 02:35									#95
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"Sorry if people misinterpretted my posts as being personal, I didn't direct them at any poly member."



Well, Ming has said chill, so I'll let Sava's words here speak for themselves. Thanks Sava, you make it so easy!

	16-08-2003 02:40									#96
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Am I the only one who imagines JohnMcLeod's face when he'll discover what has become of his thread ?

	16-08-2003 02:42									#97
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Shi, please stop trying to start a flame war. I stated my opinions on why Kyoto was bad, you disagreed, and I made fun of conspiracy theorists. Let it go.

[/end threadjack]

The ultimate solution for the problems that Kyoto aimed to solve has to do with nations created domestic policies that will deal with the problems. Sure, countries with such close connections should work together, but there isn't some worldwide one-size-fits-all solution to solving environmental problems. An international treaty that attempts to outline solutions is a bad idea. The problem is complex and nations should work to solve their own internal matters and work together when needed.

	16-08-2003 02:46									#98
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I find it kinda redicilous when GWB tells Iran: "Why do you need nuclear power when you have so much oil?", like if he had never even heard of Kyoto. And what's the deal if they get nukes from their nuclear power? Think of Pakistan, the real home of the Talibans. If they didn't have nukes, they would be toast since 9/12 2001. I remember the Bush election campaign, when a journalist asked GWB if he knew the name of the military dictator of Pakistan. GWB didn't. Then, just a few months later, the dictator was suddenly GWB's best friend.

The best way to keep US army out of your country is to get nukes. Just look at Sovjet Union (duh), China, North Korea and Pakistan. You never have to use them, you only have to apply the MAD rules. One device hidden away is enough. Saddam didn't have that.

	16-08-2003 02:48									#99
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Spiffor... You claim that Bush has done nothing since the Kyoto Treaty was dismissed...

But may I ask you a question (because I really don't know)... What has you country done since then? Have all they done is bemoan the loss of the treaty... or have they since gone out and made changes in your country that actually help?

While I will admit that Bush has done squat... (yeah, weak and lame milage agreements for new cars don't count for much)... I haven't heard of a lot of action on the other side of the big pond either.

	16-08-2003 02:51									#100
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In fact, lets take a look at Sava's argument on this thread:

quote: and people who believe this garbage are dumb... It was a lame attempt by Greenie-Euros to enact an effective environmentally-friendly treaty. But according to the dumb, the Euro's are conspiring to destroy America's economy.

quote: Yup... what I find hilarious is what Shi pointed out... how many people believe that Kyoto was a conspiracy to destroy America's economy....

quote: aw don't cry Shi... anyways, dumb isn't the right way to describe people that think Kyoto was a plot to destory America's economy... tinfoil hat-wearing dipshits sounds more appropriate...

So we have here for Sava's argument:

NO IT WAS THE GREENIES

YOU'RE DUMB
YOU'RE DUMB
YOU'RE DUMB


I don't participate in debates a much as I used to, but I am noticing a pattern here. When we had the debate over whether Eastern Europe was actually socialist or not, Sava did the same exact thing of repeteadly stating his original bald assertation only varying his posts by the insults he threw in.

Obviously what I was doing was speculating on the intention on the backers of Kyoto, my statement can't be proven or disproven either way. Same way with speculating on Bush intentions for the war- no way to affirmatively prove what is in someone's mind. You'll have to pardon me for being suspicious of their intentions however, there is widespread feeling throughout the world that has America has become way too powerful and that US hegemony is not something good.


Ah well, enough of this side thing. I'm done, feel free to reply to this and take the last word if you like.

	16-08-2003 02:54									#101
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That's Sava though!

Your Dumb
Your Dumb'
Bite ME
Accusation
Worthy Comment and maybe a good argument with some factual backing
Your Dumb
I'm Drunk Now

	16-08-2003 02:57									#102
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quote: Originally posted by Ming Spiffor... You claim that Bush has done nothing since the Kyoto Treaty was dismissed... But may I ask you a question (because I really don't know)... What has you country done since then? Have all they done is bemoan the loss of the treaty... or have they since gone out and made changes in your country that actually help? While I will admit that Bush has done squat... (yeah, weak and lame milage agreements for new cars don't count for much)... I haven't heard of a lot of action on the other side of the big pond either.

Good point Ming. It seems as if these small nations want to become policy makers in the US. It's really very silly. I doubt these people are informed enough about America to form an effective solution. And this is the reality about Kyoto. It was created by people who wanted environmentally friendly policies, but ultimately failed because they tried to create a one-size-fits-all solution without having an adequate idea about industry, and how to combat polluting forms of it.

And despite what some want you to think, that these people are all evil America hating eurocoms that want to destroy the US economy, their intentions and motives are quite clear.

	16-08-2003 02:58									#103
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quote: Your Dumb Your Dumb' Bite ME Accusation Worthy Comment and maybe a good argument with some factual backing Your Dumb I'm Drunk Now

You see Japher, it's wonderful people like yourself that understand me.

	16-08-2003 03:00									#104
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It's exactly what I do, without the "Worthy Comment and maybe a good argument with some factual backing"

	16-08-2003 03:01									#105
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Bush's main power is the fact there is noone to replace him. Really.

on a scale of 1 to 10, I'd give him 3. and honestly, I put those 3 only because I don't want to be part of the " BNUSH IS STUPID AND USA R EVIL!!!!!!!!111111" mudslinging monkey school. His reactions to events were fair, but I don't see any positive ACTION from him.

Maybe it's different in america than it is here.

	16-08-2003 03:17									#106
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I guess the biggest misconception that you guys have of me is that I am part of the " BNUSH IS STUPID AND USA R EVIL!!!!!!!!111111" mudslinging monkey school". This may be hard to believe, but I'm not. I wasn't posting here when Clinton was in office, so you guys never had the pleasure of hearing my anti-Clinton rants. In REALITY, I'm just a cynical bast4rd who believes in holding people responsible. The Presidency is a powerful position. As President, one can do a lot of good, and likewise, a lot of evil. I believe in holding people accountable. I'm also an obnoxious @sshole. Combine these two personality traits, and you get ME!! Because Republicans are in power, both in Congress and the Presidency, they get the blaim for most of the problems we talk about on these forums.

	16-08-2003 03:28									#107
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quote: Originally posted by Ming But may I ask you a question (because I really don't know)... What has you country done since then? Have all they done is bemoan the loss of the treaty... or have they since gone out and made changes in your country that actually help?

Well, France has been one of the best developed countries regarding air pollution, because of a decades-old policy opposed to the use of oil or coal (a Gaullist attempt to be as little dependant from foreign oil as possible). As a result, 75% of France's electricity is nuclear, and most of the rest is hydraulic, making our power production almost 100% air-clean.
Cars have become more fuel efficient, especially since the oil crises, and there are many tax incentives for individuals to take steps to reduces their energy consumption. Many cars now use liquid natural gas as a fuel, which doesn't create greenhouse gases (but they're not the majority). Public transportation, such as mass-transit and trains are efficient and transport a very significant mass.

Some timid steps have been taken to reduce truck-pollution (the construction of a truck-train tunnel under the Alps), because freight transportation has always been our weak point in this regard. But these efforts have been interrupted too early by our new government because of a tight budget. Our new government gives a very low priority to the environment, and generally continues the policies of the past. Our environment minister is also incompetent for the job. Such an inaction is a bad thing, but at least we had a pretty good starting position.

EU countries have dispatched the extent of pollution reduction they should do regarding Kyoto. Between 2008 and 2012, Germany is to reduce it's emissions by 21% from 1990 level, France can stay unchanged, and Greece is allowed a 15% increase.

Germany is on the bad way since it abandoned nuclear energy (it buys loads of nuclear electricity from France though). Germany intends to begin its policy at the beginning of 2005 . I've seen the German State has invested massively into a massive offshore windmill-platform though. This indeed isn't enough, and if I were to list Schröder's failures, I'd definitely list his inaction about air pollution

	16-08-2003 03:30									#108
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quote: Am I the only one who imagines JohnMcLeod's face when he'll discover what has become of his thread ?

I came back to the thread to find 4 pages of nothing. This is strange though. Everyone seemed to be very angry about Bush's decision about the Kyoto treaty, and now it looks like it's accepted that he did the right thing.

Anyway, all the righties say "Bush is a great president." But they can't find anything to back it up. The leftists say "Bush sucks," but they don't have anything to back it up either. So who is right?

Whoever talked of Saddam giving weapons to our enemies is very wrong. THERE IS NO LINK BETWEEN SADDAM AND AL QUADA! How many times does this have to be stated? Do you honestly think that Saddam is going to give away 'terrible weapons' to another group he can't even trust! Saddam got his finger pointed at for 911 and he had nothing to do with it. What do you think the American public will think when a terrorist group without the means of producing chemical weapons who attacks the US with those weapons? They'll point the finger at Saddam, and Iraq will get invaded.

And BTW, when did Saddam aid someone attacking the US? That is after all what that person said.

And the thought of Saddam attacking the US with chemical weapons is absurd. I already explained why a few pages ago.

	16-08-2003 03:32									#109
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Thanks for the info Spiffor. Now I know more than I did before.

	16-08-2003 03:59									#110
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui I guess this thread has proven one thing. The enemies of Bush will try to blame him for everything under the sun in the hopes that one will stick. The ridiculous blaming him for Kyoto is simply the most glaring.

I don't blame him for things he hasn't done, but about the things he did like Kyoto

where do you get the idea we blame him for every bad thing in the world?

	16-08-2003 11:40									#111
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I supported Bush up to a few months ago before the Iraq war.

But something really bothers me about him.

I do believe he's better than Clinton, but that isn't saying much.

Why can't we get good leaders? Where are they?

	16-08-2003 12:16									#112
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Olaf -

quote: Yeah, like you were self-sufficient in oil. Why did your army "secure" the Iraqi oil fields before anything else?

quote: I don't take empty statements seriously if they are not backed up by arguments. Now you remind me of Fez (which almost means "fart" in Swedish...)

I'd say the second quote compliments the first well enough. Anyway, what do Iraqi oil fields have to do with my comment about the US being the biggest consumer and producer (seems quite obvious and natural for the biggest producer of goods to be the biggest consumer too)? How did you reach the conclusion I was saying the US doesn't import oil? If you say I didn't make that statement, then explain just what you're responding to. Second, those oil fields were secured because they are needed to fund Iraq's rebuilding and provide oil for export and domestic consumption. If US troops didn't secure them and Iraqis loyal to Saddam blew them up, you'd undoubtedly complain about Bush not protecting the oil fields.

	16-08-2003 13:16									#113
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quote: . Many cars now use liquid natural gas as a fuel, which doesn't create greenhouse gases

I think you're wrong here.

natural gas, while burning, still gives off the old Water+C02 combination.

	16-08-2003 13:38									#114
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Az:
Sorry, I'm no chemist. It seems you're right, this particular fuel does produce pollution, but at a much lower pace. I was also wrong, as it's not a natural gas, but a specific product of oil refining.

From the Vivendi glossary

quote: GPL (gaz de pétrole liquéfié) Composé d’environ 80% de butane (C4H10) et de 20% de propane (C3H8) en France, le GPL est un carburant « propre », issu du raffinage du pétrole brut. Par rapport au gazole, l’utilisation du GPL dans les transports collectifs permet de réduire de 50% les émissions d’oxyde d’azote, de 50% celles des monoxydes de carbone et de 90% celles des hydrocarbures et particules.

"GPL (liquefiated petroleum gas)
Made of ca 80% butane (C4H10) and 20% propane (C3H8) in France, GPL is a "clean" fuel that comes from rening crude oil. In comparison with gasoline, the use of GPL in public transportation cuts nitrogen oxyd emissions by 50%, carbon monoxyd by 50% and hydrocarbons by 90%"
I assume the greenhouse gases are hydrocarbons (that's what I understand with "water+CO2 combination"). This fuel is a step in the right direction, and its use becomes more widespread in France, despite still being far from the majority.

	16-08-2003 14:27									#115
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Not signing the US up to a global ban on antipersonnel landmines. A real no-brainer, this one.

Weapons proliferation on a quite ludicrous scale, completely at odds with the threat of terrorism.

Utterly hypocritical policies regarding free trade ond open markets. And yes, the EU is a **** with regards to this as well.

Pressurising third world countries to respect drug company patents.

	16-08-2003 18:36									#116
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quote: Originally posted by Sandman Pressurising third world countries to respect drug company patents.

This one just makes me . WHY can't they make AFFORDABLE drugs and still turn a profit. It's so bad here they're going across the border (to Canada) to get prescriptions filled- and the companies are trying to stop it! .

	16-08-2003 19:32									#117
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quote: I guess the biggest misconception that you guys have of me is that I am part of the " BNUSH IS STUPID AND USA R EVIL!!!!!!!!111111" mudslinging monkey school". This may be hard to believe, but I'm not.

I never said I was talking about you.

quote: Sorry, I'm no chemist. It seems you're right, this particular fuel does produce pollution, but at a much lower pace. I was also wrong, as it's not a natural gas, but a specific product of oil refining.

That's ok. everyone calls it natural gas, anyway. Seriously, though, natural gas' only good properties are the quality of combustion, and lakc of pollutants such as sulfur. it produces just as much CO2, the greenhouse gas, as the next thing.

small hydrocarbons, e.g. methane, are also greenhouse gases but the bulk of the greenhouse effect is made by CO2, the product of their combustion.

	16-08-2003 21:03									#118
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Has this thread been Savaized?

	16-08-2003 21:16									#119
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Was Clinton that bad? What did he do besides lying to the public? Fill me in on what I don't know, I wasn't into politics during his administration.

	16-08-2003 21:19									#120
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As I have mentioned before john -- Clinton signed the Defense of Marriage Act in 1996 as a way to kowtow to some Republicans who had a homophobic agenda.