15-08-2003 22:24									#1
	Historical notions Remove this text

I'm not a big fan of history or real-world scenarios, mostly because I don't like obeying the limitations of the real world in scenario design, but some ideas came to me for anybody out there who is:

Rise of Islam: There seem to be many crusader scenarios out there, but I've never heard of one covering the rise of the faith itself-the Hegira, the reconquest of Mecca, and the burst of expansive campaigns that gave the caliphate control over most of modern Saudi Arabia by Mohammed's death. Probably because this is such a ticklish subject; nobody wants to offend their playing audience. It might be a problem that you aren't supposed to visually represent the prophet, so you'd have to depict him as a big M or something...still, it could be very interesting.
Sudan: Sudan has been in a nasty on-and-off civil war for the past two or three decades over its rich oil wells. The government evicted people without compensation to make the wells available to foreign businesses and investors; the people responded with a poorly organized but doggedly tenacious revolt. Sudan has kept order for the past twenty years only by channeling its oil revenue into tons of helicopters and troops. The rebels cut off supply lines so disease and starvation are rampant and the people have gotten fed up with both sides. What would happen if, for some reason(an alternative source, PR concerns, those hydrogen cells Bush keeps blathering about), the demand for oil disappeared? Might make an interesting scenario on a largely unknown subject.
Northern Ireland: When the UrbCiv mod is completed, this would be a great application. While we're talking about Ireland, the Tain bo Cuilagne would be cool too, for celtic legend buffs. I'd play it myself.

Just thought I'd mention this stuff before I forget it, since people are always complaining that they're stuck for ideas.

	16-08-2003 02:10									#2
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hi ,

some of those scen's you want where on the civ gold edition under " best of the net " , .....

take a look at the " directory "

have a nice day

	16-08-2003 02:42									#3
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Mike Daumen and I tried to make a scenario on the rise of Islam starting with the conquest of Mecca by Muhammad a long, long while ago. We both kinda screwed it for some reason, but it would've been great. But IIRC, Heresson is currently working on one.

	16-08-2003 03:24									#4
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quote: Originally posted by panag hi , some of those scen's you want where on the civ gold edition under " best of the net " , ..... take a look at the " directory " have a nice day

I'm guessing the Islam and Northern Ireland ones...Sudan's pretty obscure and not many have heard of the Tain.
And again, I don't have MGE. Do I have to put that in my signature or what?

	17-08-2003 19:36									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Elok I'm guessing the Islam and Northern Ireland ones...Sudan's pretty obscure and not many have heard of the Tain. And again, I don't have MGE. Do I have to put that in my signature or what?

hi ,

yes you have to use your sig line more often , .......


do a search , there are countless CIV II sites with great mods and scen's out there

have a nice day

	17-08-2003 22:37									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Elok And again, I don't have MGE. Do I have to put that in my signature or what?

The same scenarios come with the "Conflicts in Civilization" version, which predates FW. MGE was just a compilation of the previous 3 versions, with multiplayer enabled.

	18-08-2003 00:15									#7
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I've been thinking about doing a Northern Ireland scenario for a while based on a hypothetical invasion by the 'Free State' (some people in the North still refer to the Republic as this ) in the early seventies, roughly about the time of the Arms Crisis. I got as far as designing a map - maybe I'll take a look at it again before I go back to university.

I've thought about doing a scenario on the Tain too, but the only idea I had for this was for the player to have only one unit (CuChullain) which he has to use to stop the armies of the other four provinces from crossing into a defenceless Ulster. I don't know if it's possible to make a good scenario of the Tain.

I'm impressed with your knowledge of Celtic legend Elok! I didn't know it had fans outside of Ireland.

	18-08-2003 08:52									#8
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I'll have to carefully research and cross-reference my casual suggestions from now on, wouldn't want to waste ten seconds of anybody's time with a done idea.
Snide sniping aside, I always thought the most interesting part of the Tain was not the legend itself but the cycle of events leading up to it, especially the betrayal of the sons of Usna and Fergus's revolt. I suppose the Tain itself would be almost impossible to simulate without resorting to downright tedious deliberately poor balancing(superunit vs. overwhelming horde of weaklings). It'll probably be turned into fodder for some kind of Gauntlet-wannabe dungeon slasher within a few years as people get more and more tired of the same old mythological allusions. Alas.

	18-08-2003 11:02									#9
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Where can one find your Irish scenario, OM?

	19-08-2003 02:22									#10
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Your knowledge of Irish Myth again astounds me Elok! I wasn't aware that the sons of Usna was apart of the legend - all I can remember of the cause of the Tain is that Meabh attacked Ulster so she could capture the Brown Bull Of Cooley, because she was the type of girl that just wanted the biggest and best of everything. Women haven't changed much since I guess.

The sons of Usna - now that might make an interesting scenario. If I remember the legend correctly, they killed some important guy, the stones on the road told the next passer-by about the dastardly deed they had committed, and to atone for their sins Conor sent them on an impossible quest to recover ten magical items for him (Irish legends can be kind of trippy). If this is the right story (please correct me if I'm getting my legends muddled ) it could play out like an Odyssey type scenario. Way too ambitious for me to attempt though. Care to try yourself Elok?

techumseh, I barely started my Northern Ireland scenario before other things took my attention (Splinter Cell ); so at the moment there's only a map, together with some modified terrain files and placed cities. Give me a day or two, and I'll start a new thread showing what I've done so far and to ask for help/suggestions to complete it.

	19-08-2003 07:15									#11
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quote: Originally posted by our_man Your knowledge of Irish Myth again astounds me Elok! I wasn't aware that the sons of Usna was apart of the legend - all I can remember of the cause of the Tain is that Meabh attacked Ulster so she could capture the Brown Bull Of Cooley, because she was the type of girl that just wanted the biggest and best of everything. Women haven't changed much since I guess. The sons of Usna - now that might make an interesting scenario. If I remember the legend correctly, they killed some important guy, the stones on the road told the next passer-by about the dastardly deed they had committed, and to atone for their sins Conor sent them on an impossible quest to recover ten magical items for him (Irish legends can be kind of trippy). If this is the right story (please correct me if I'm getting my legends muddled ) it could play out like an Odyssey type scenario. Way too ambitious for me to attempt though. Care to try yourself Elok?

No, you're thinking of a different myth. Those were the guys who killed Kian, Lugh's father, and Lugh demanded ten items as a blood price without specifying their precise nature, i.e. that they were magical and nearly impossible to get. The poor schleps agreed, and were forced to get it all. They were killed during the tenth task, but they did it...actually the tenth task was just to give three shouts on a hill guarded by warriors who had sworn never to let anyone raise his voice on the hill; Lugh gained nothing from it. He was just feeling spiteful and wanted them dead. The myth does play a part in the invasion cycle, as the nine actual treasures he got from it were used to help the Danaans at the battle against Balor and the fomorians at Mag Tured/Moytura/however you prefer to spell it. That might make a wacky scenario too; I know too little about ancient Irish culture outside of the myths to try.
The betrayal of the sons of Usna is probably better known as Deirdre's story. Hey, gather 'round, folks, it's archaic story funtime with Elok. Anyway, Deirdre was a girl born in the court of King Conor Mac Nessa around the middle of his reign. Cathbad the Druid made a prophecy at her birth that her love would bring great sorrow to Erin or some such. Conor, apparently believing that prophecies are somehow negotiable, said he would prevent that from happening by marrying the girl himself when she came of age. Of course, by the time she grew up, into a real looker no less, Conor was a pretty old guy and she felt no desire whatsoever to marry him. Instead, seeing Naisi the son of Usna pass by, she swooned over him and begged him to take her away. He thought she was cute and all but didn't really want to be bothered(the Irish weren't terribly romantic in those days, I guess). She got whiny about how shameful it was for a gentleman to deny a lady in distress, and when she put it that way he felt he had no choice. Recruiting his brothers' help, he carried Deirdre away into the wilderness, where they spent some years dodging and fighting Conor's troops. Finally Conor said uncle and asked them to come back and talk it over reasonably, sending Fergus Mac Roy to find them and escort them back. They were almost back, resting in a small tower, when a messenger arrived to invite Fergus to a feast. He was forbidden by geise(a kind of superstition) to refuse a feast, so he went off, leaving his two sons to guard them. No sooner had he left than Conor bribed one of the sons to turn traitor and sent waves of troops after the other one until he was killed. Fergus returned to find the tower full of dead bodies, including Naisi and his brothers, and Deirdre gone. Plus one of his kids had disgraced his name and the other had been killed. Needless to say, he kirked out, swearing vengeance against Conor and taking his whole clan into exile with him, along with several others who were disgusted by the King's conduct. They eventually joined up with Maeve and fought with her men in the raid. It's not directly related but I think it's pretty interesting as tales of slighted honor and sworn vengeance and suchlike go.
And I think Ireland scenarios should be done by people who actually know a lot about Ireland...

	19-08-2003 08:11									#12
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quote: Originally posted by our_man techumseh, I barely started my Northern Ireland scenario before other things took my attention (Splinter Cell ); so at the moment there's only a map, together with some modified terrain files and placed cities. Give me a day or two, and I'll start a new thread showing what I've done so far and to ask for help/suggestions to complete it.

I was sure you had posted a scenario on an Irish rising in the 16th or 17th century, but now I can't find it. Or maybe it was someone else's? Or maybe the loss of Bob Hope has made me delusional?

	19-08-2003 08:29									#13
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Speakin o' such, how well does Civ2 work as an engine for tactical scenarios? Does it make the AI stronger or worse?

	19-08-2003 18:54									#14
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Probably "stronger," insofar as a lot of the really big limitations of the AI are facets of strategic planning: they can't build wonders worth squat, they don't abuse caravans, they jack up the luxury rate sky-high before they even think of building a temple, they don't seem to focus well on long-term goals, etc. Also weaker in a sense due to their inability to assemble critical mass armies, poor understanding of how terrain affects deployment(as in, they take forever to figure out they're on tiny islands), and so on. But they handle the military aspects of the game better in my experience, so I'd guess it would be improved overall.

	19-08-2003 20:33									#15
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Oh, and has anybody done a scenario on the Great Schism? Y'know, the time in European history when there were two or three abusive criminals controlling the medieval Catholic church instead of the usual one? If I remember right, there was a Pope in southern France and one in Rome, then a third set himself up in Germany or somewhere like that for some demented reason. Horribly complicated period of ascending powers, war, tangled alliances and general skullduggery. Sounds like good civvy fun.

	19-08-2003 22:13									#16
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Oh, right techumseh, you meant my United Irishman scenario. Someone actually remembers it! And I was afraid my work had been forgotten by the community.

It can be found at the SLeague:
http://sleague.apolyton.net/Files/0...unitedirish.zip

	21-08-2003 18:55									#17
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I do not fear offending my playing audience. Did that many times

	22-08-2003 00:39									#18
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The more evil the civ, the better!

	22-08-2003 01:16									#19
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quote: Originally posted by curtsibling The more evil the civ, the better!

So when people in the OT compare each other to Hitler, they're actually giving compliments?

	22-08-2003 02:09									#20
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quote: Originally posted by our_man Oh, right techumseh, you meant my United Irishman scenario. Someone actually remembers it! And I was afraid my work had been forgotten by the community. It can be found at the SLeague: http://sleague.apolyton.net/Files/0...unitedirish.zip

Not at all. I had it on my old computer, and quite enjoyed it. I've re-downloaded it and I'll give it another go.

The map is outstanding. Have you given any thought (after "The Troubles" perhaps) to using it again, possibly for the Irish struggle for independence, maybe starting with the Easter Rising and ending with the establishment of the Free State?

I saw the movie "Michael Collins" a couple of years ago and thought it was very good. It might also make a good scenario, and one in which the Irish won - at least a marginal victory.

	22-08-2003 14:22									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Elok So when people in the OT compare each other to Hitler, they're actually giving compliments?

Depends

	23-08-2003 20:51									#22
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techumseh, I'm delighted that you enjoyed the scenario. It's always good to hear that other people enjoy your work.

Concerning your suggestion about a scenario to do with the Irish struggle for independence after the Easter Rising, I don't think it would work. This part of Irish history was relatively 'peaceful'; until January 1919 the struggle for independence was almost exclusively political and therefore not the easiest to replicate in Civ2. Most of the Volunteers, including Collins, were in internment camps. Even the War of Independence might be too difficult to do, as it involved very little conventional warfare.

The two events that bookend this period however; the Easter Rising and the Civil War could make brilliant scenarios. Maybe someday...