16-08-2003 02:27									#31
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quote: These data show that, aside from California, consumers are clearly benefitting. How many other commodities can you name (aside from computers) where the price today is the same or less than the price seven years ago?

Thanks AS

quote: In reality, your free-market wet dream of deregulation (in terms of energy) turns into less jobs, less maintenance, higher prices, and obscene corporate profits.

EVEN in the face of facts, the Sava propaganda machine rolls on. Gotta love it.

And I was wondering when Sava was going to blame Bush for this

	16-08-2003 02:28									#32
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here Berz... this is an 18 page essay from the Executive Vice President of the American Public Power Association about Enron. Educate yourself.

http://www.appanet.org/pdfreq.cfm?P...df&VARACTION=GO

	16-08-2003 02:28									#33
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he has been blaming Bush for this for the past year... that I know of

	16-08-2003 02:29									#34
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quote: EVEN in the face of facts, the Sava propaganda machine rolls on. Gotta love it.

Face of facts? Like the California Energy Crisis? Brazil's Blackouts? Montana's? How much more fact do you need to wake up from this conservative corporate nightmare you live in?

	16-08-2003 02:34									#35
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quote: Face of facts?

Yes. I'll quote it again, if you want:

Northeast: 1996 136.8 2003 134.2
South: 1996 123.7 2003 124.0
Midwest: 1996 122.2 2003 123.6
West: 1996 144.0 2003 184.3

	16-08-2003 02:36									#36
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nice quote... turn on CNN and you can see my evidence...

	16-08-2003 02:37									#37
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Can Adam Smith or Imran explain me where the loss of reliability comes from please ? I must have missed something.

	16-08-2003 02:38									#38
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quote: Can Adam Smith or Imran explain me where the loss of reliability comes from please ? I must have missed something.

that's their ploy... these corporate types like to quote misleading "facts" but the reality is that their policies lead to disasters and consumers end up losing.

	16-08-2003 02:39									#39
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quote: Originally posted by reds4ever Ah, I didn't realize....we had gov. ownership in the UK...

we still do.

	16-08-2003 02:40									#40
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Telecom deregulation seemed to work... caused an economic rockslide as the little ones got picked off, but is much better now that the gov. ain't controlling it.

	16-08-2003 02:45									#41
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quote: Telecom deregulation seemed to work... caused an economic rockslide as the little ones got picked off, but is much better now that the gov. ain't controlling it.

That's debatable.

But regardless... the notion of blanket deregulation is just silly. Sure, some regulations might be antiquated, unneeded, and harmful to business. But in terms of industries that are essential to daily life, I think the government should act in the interests of whats best for consumers and not a few corporate fat cats. History has proven that such deregulation is beneficial for Ken Lay and his buddies, and bad for the rest of America.

	16-08-2003 02:48									#42
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quote: That's debatable.

Yeah, and I don't feel like having a debate about deregulation actually working.: I would rather have a debate about it not working... Personally I love my telephone service comapred to 7 years ago. I pay a lot less and call a lot more. No more $300 for 3 hour call.

	16-08-2003 02:48									#43
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quote: Can Adam Smith or Imran explain me where the loss of reliability comes from please

Well no one knows what caused this one yet. However, as for the rest, I'm not sure there has been much 'loss of reliability'. California is an utter screwup that is mainly the result of NOT de-regulating as the economists informed the state. MtG can go on for pages about this, btw.

And of course, as AS has shown prices haven't gone up at all, so that's another lie Sava has been pushing.

quote: Telecom deregulation seemed to work... caused an economic rockslide as the little ones got picked off, but is much better now that the gov. ain't controlling it.

Works very well actually. Finally, in Georgia, where I am, people can get ANOTHER phone service without having to get a cell phone. People down there consider it amazing... and now they can get low cost carriers with good service (or stick with BellSouth )..

	16-08-2003 02:49									#44
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It is simplisitic, unthinking dogma that is driving our governments to privatise every little thing they can. It's time for a change.

	16-08-2003 02:50									#45
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I think we are going to have to wait for the deregulation transition to finish before we will start to see the rewards for it... Unfortunatly for California we are going to be screwed a lot longer than everyone else because Davis can't stop signing things without asking his advisors or ppl in the know about what he is signing.

	16-08-2003 02:51									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel we still do.

Then treasure it!

The conservatives sold the peoples utility companies back to them (and pocketed the money to allow for voter friendly tax cuts) and then made the consumer (who'd 'owned' it in the first place) pay extra in bills to pay the shareholder dividends (out of the tax savings)!

And it won votes! Unbelivable!

	16-08-2003 02:53									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Can Adam Smith or Imran explain me where the loss of reliability comes from please ? I must have missed something.

In theory, at least, the explanation's quite simple. Deregulated companies aren't required to have all the backups and precautions and crap, therefore they cut them out to save cash so that they can either sell lower and get more customers or just take the money saved and award it as a bonus. Whichever one happens, it's a bad thing, because when the quality of equipment and training inevitably affects quality of service(i.e. blackouts, explosions, CNN catches them using pigeons to man the emergency shutoff switch, etc.), they don't really have to face the consequences. Utilities by nature tend to have a local monopoly, and it's not like you can just start up a power company to take the place of another in a few days. The facilities are damnably expensive and complex. As a result, people tend to take crap from their robber barons far beyond what they would normally tolerate. I don't know for sure if that's the case here, but it wouldn't surprise me.

	16-08-2003 02:53									#48
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Sava -

quote: If '65 and '77 blackouts were at all similar to this blackout, then I'd be concerned. But they aren't, so I won't.

The reason this one was so bad is because of government regulations creating regional "grids" which were hit by a cascading effect, along with increased populations, etc. PBS "Nova" documented a similar blackout effecting much of the same area resulting from a solar flare, the same thing happened - the cascade effect. You didn't explain how those blackouts fit into your little theory, not surprised you ducked that.

quote: And this rant of mine isn't "anti-free market" or whatever little ignorant catch phrase you want to make up.

Really?

quote: Power shouldn't be a market.

You contradicted yourself in the very next sentence.

quote: At this point in our society, it's a necessity.

Food is necessary, so what?

quote: Power should be provided WITHOUT PROFIT by whoever can do it for the highest quality at the lowest cost.

The same with every other necessity? Tell us, Sava, if you can't make a profit as a farmer, how will you expand your operation to produce more food? Just ask how everyone who provides a service will expand if they can't make any profit...

quote: But instead, you get rich corporations seizing control of energy production... they cut jobs, they reap huge bonuses, they cut quality, they reap huge bonuses. Now how in God's green earth could you be in support of such a stupid policy?

I don't, the situation we have is because of government regulations, not the free market, always was, and will always be with ignorant demagogues showing us the way. Why do you think so much money is spent lobbying politicians? Because those politicians have control, not because they don't.

quote: You don't know what you are talking about Berz, stick to marijuana debates and leave such discussion to people who ARE INFORMED.

Which raises another point of interest - would you blame the bulk of drug-"related" crime rates on drugs or on prohibition. The people pushing the drug war do the same thing you've done - blame the results of government intervention in the marketplace on the marketplace.

	16-08-2003 02:54									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Elok This is why the Mandate of Heaven is a superior form of government to democracy. People don't screw around when they know they'll die together with their families if they get the people mad. It's a more impressive penalty than embarassment.

ROFLOL.:P

	16-08-2003 02:58									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker Food is necessary, so what?

I can't comment on the US stuff, but you can choose what food you buy and where you get it from

	16-08-2003 02:59									#51
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quote: I can't comment on the US stuff, but you can choose what food you buy and where you get it from

Thus it's a deregulated necessity...

	16-08-2003 03:00									#52
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quote: You contradicted yourself in the very next sentence.

It's Sava we are talking about here . If he didn't contradict himself in a post, I'd be concerned .

	16-08-2003 03:04									#53
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The same with every other necessity? Tell us, Sava, if you can't make a profit as a farmer, how will you expand your operation to produce more food? Just ask how everyone who provides a service will expand if they can't make any profit...

There is such a thing as taxation. Service fees should cover maintenance, not expansion.

Service fees cannot replace taxation because they have nothing to do with income.

Expansion of the power system allows for a larger taxbase to exist.

This is the point where libertarians enter the discussion saying that everyone should buy personal generators and those who can't afford one should get a better job. After all, everyone can have a better job at the same time and there is no luck involved.

	16-08-2003 03:04									#54
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quote: Originally posted by reds4ever Then treasure it! The conservatives sold the peoples utility companies back to them (and pocketed the money to allow for voter friendly tax cuts) and then made the consumer (who'd 'owned' it in the first place) pay extra in bills to pay the shareholder dividends (out of the tax savings)! And it won votes! Unbelivable!

so, what's your average price for KWh these days? I am trying to think of how well our govt. utility rates vs. the world, adjusted for geopolitical realities, and other factors.

	16-08-2003 03:05									#55
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quote: I don't, the situation we have is because of government regulations, not the free market, always was, and will always be with ignorant demagogues showing us the way. Why do you think so much money is spent lobbying politicians? Because those politicians have control, not because they don't.

Sorry Berz, history proves you wrong yet again. Before the creation of government regulation, robber barons exploited the country. Then, Roosevelt championed legislation to dismantle utility monopolies, and in 1935 Congress passed the Federal Power Act, requiring the Federal Power Commission to set "just and reasonable" wholesale electricity prices. The situation we are in is because of greedy corporate profiteering types like Ken Lay and their abuses of the free market. Regulations are in place to prevent abuses. Sure, they do constrain the expansion of business in some form, but IMO they prevent market bubbles... and for a good reason... bubbles burst. People want stable utilities and not a deregulated marketplace where disasters can occur.

quote: Which raises another point of interest - would you blame the bulk of drug-"related" crime rates on drugs or on prohibition. The people pushing the drug war do the same thing you've done - blame the results of government intervention in the marketplace on the marketplace.

The two are completely different issues that require different solutions. Your libertarian "one-size-fits-all" anarchtic approach to things is not... I repeat... NOT a good solution. Each problem needs study and solutions beneficial to America... NOT JUST KEN LAY... but the people.

In addition... this most recent blackout and the cascading effect occurred because the power companies did not comply with VOLUNTAIRY safety regulations. This is according to former Energy Secretary Bill Richardson.

	16-08-2003 03:05									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Japher Thus it's a deregulated necessity...

I mean that one company does not have a monopoly on the supply

	16-08-2003 03:08									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: You contradicted yourself in the very next sentence. It's Sava we are talking about here . If he didn't contradict himself in a post, I'd be concerned .

No I didn't. I am not anti-free market. I believe such an economic style has its uses... in consumer goods. But too many people make the mistake of following an ideology even when it's not the right way to do things. Sorry, but the same economic system that allows McDonalds to sell hamburgers might not be the best way to ensure Americans get health-care... or... UTILITIES. I'm not opposed to Capitalism or free markets at all... I just want them applied where they are the best way of doing things. How many more power blackouts or disasters does America have to endure before you guys catch on?

	16-08-2003 03:10									#58
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Sava -

quote: because Houston Natural Gas aka Enron, cornered the market and gained a monopoly

And how did they do that without the help of Davis and the Democrats in control? Because California doesn't have a free market in energy production and government regulations led their problem. That's why California had to seek power from out of state middlemen. Notice the words "natural gas" in that company's name? What happened to all those other energy sources California could exploit? You know, like nuclear and offshore reserves? You keep ignoring that reality and acting as if California has a free market in energy.

Btw, telling me to read an 18 page report you claim supports your position is absurd, do your own research and quote the report yourself.

	16-08-2003 03:12									#59
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quote: Btw, telling me to read an 18 page report you claim supports your position is absurd, do your own research and quote the report yourself.

Sorry for trying to inform you. I'm only trying to help you NOT be an ideologically blinded libertarian.

	16-08-2003 03:16									#60
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Sorry, Sava, utilities should be deregulated to get competition in. I've seen a whole HELL of a lot **** done by the government monopoly in dealing with utilities, especially the water supply. At least with competition, the people can have a choice to dump the government selected monopoly because of the crap they are doing.

As far as energy deregulation, I'm for it. California would have been much better served if it actually deregulated rather than partially did so.