19-08-2003 22:39									#31
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You're missing the point- right now, RP is a single point civ, perhaps two point civ- NM and P, nothing more. If we want a viable ally, if we want any chance of holding up, and gaining, in a long brutal war, we need to gain some cities, and make sure we're able to defend those.

For this, we need to shorthen the front first- GoW's riders are a thorn at our side, we have what it takes to take them out while defending whatever we have properly- its a small and not so risky venture (we're talking about 8-9 riders, with no chance of any reinforcements en route, save ND's which I don't think is concerned with aiding GoW that much), but will free up forces, and I think is worth it. S is a fortress, if manned properly, it'll serve as an impregnable barrier to the south- And we could shift our attention towards ND on the west, or any other target.

Remember: We're at the peak of our readiness, we were slowed by the the rate of troop shipments, but in 3 turns or so we'll have more ships than troop to ferry- that should be a time to organize for an attack, even a small one, against S- we can't do much with the situation as is now, and taking S, and the riders with it is the least we could do.

	19-08-2003 23:23									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Production should be pikes/med infs. In cities that produce less than 14 shields/turn, I'd say pikes. More than that (which is what, 2-3 cities?), med infs.

One thing you seem to either forget, or maybe deliberately don't mention: cats... if we have to keep hills defended against some 10 riders, these could come very handy.

Plus, although I agree we can use MIs on defense, they don't do much good unless we have a serious road network, and we have a whole bunch of them already. Knights OTOH aren't that wide spread... now that the Lego tech deal is out of the way, we should upgrade some more WCs, if possible.

DeepO

	19-08-2003 23:35									#33
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Zeit, that's not really it... those riders are too widespread already, and have access to roads which we don't have. Most likely thay will anticipate us going after them, which could very well work in our advantage: we leave them alone, defending against them (nye's plan is certainly a start, although I think we might need more points defended to be truely safe), while going after ND. Doing so, we split their forces, can regain territory for RP by reconquering some ND cities, while GoW keeps totally corrupt cities in the South.

I think it is worth the shot, unpredictability will safe the day, they are not so easy as Vox and anticipate our moves.

I do agree on keeping our front small, but if RP holds on to Pamplona and Toledo (which I still think we should give back asap, albeit with our forces nearby), and we keep Barcelona and NM safe (with nye's plan, or an adapted verrsion of this), our front won't be so widespread. Meanwhile, we go after RP's cities in the North, possibly with some excursions to ND home land.

One thing we might also do is make a faint at GoW's territory up North. It will create another headache for them, and will keep reinforcements in theis homeland, instead of having them come South. This will only work if we can keep GoW's riders split for a while, and keep them from performing a pinch maneuver on us.

BTW, whether we keep Barca or RP doesn't matter, if we can hold onto the hills. Which means that that is another city for RP to hold, they can produce a lot more there then we can.

DeepO

	20-08-2003 00:10									#34
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Unless they're in anarchy, which is why I'd like to ask them not to accept Barcelona this turn.

	20-08-2003 01:18									#35
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Right....I agree that the riders need to be dealt with, but they need to be dealt with at the proper time.

I do not agree (necessarily...still haven't seen detailed battle maps of the region) that now is that time. We have an enormous advantage, which also serves as a disadvantage.

This war is fought away from our centers of production.

That's huge because it means that we will be largely untouched by this war.

It's harsh because it means we have a logistics and supply problem (somewhat eased in three turns, as more ships come online)

Because of that logistics and supply problem, the a#1 priority is to protect the beach head we have right now....this turn. Where possible, extend and expand that into re-captured RP cities and give them over to our ally to strengthen them.

Pikes are cheaper than their fancy attackers (by far), but just as effective on the D...and because they are cheaper, we can afford to crank more of them out (more pikes for the same money, as it were), meaning that over the course of time, the scales tip dramatically in our favor. IF we play it smart and conserve our own fast movers, taking advantage of any mistakes they make, but not outright chasing them all over the map (which will only serve to draw our forces out).

Picture a steamroller....that's us....

-=Vel=-

	20-08-2003 11:04									#36
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After long chat with Dejon and Togas of RP, see the RP 130AD thread...

RP cannot send any forces out of Pamplona until either Salamanca or Leon-Zaragoza is shut down. To do so would be suicidal for Pamplona. There are up to 9 riders, and at least 6 ansars just about ready to pounce on Pamplona. they will need every man they have on the walls. We could advance into the teeth of ND by ourselves, but I would not recommend it, especially while trying to hold a perimeter vs GoW to the South at the same time.

So, how do we change the rules? We clear the South.

Starting this next turn, boats start sailing to a rendevous for a 10 or 12 unit force to 'liberate' Valencia and Murcia. They already carry much of that force.

In 4 turns we can have 2 workers in that hole in the road at 8 8 8 of Valencia. I had tagged a whole lot of pikes to hold a defensive perimeter in the south. Why the heck should we defend? Take 8 p, 8 c, 6+ mi, and 10+ k and take Salamanca back. If in the process we can kill 5 or 8 riders, then that threat will be done, and then we can strike out into Western Spain with support from a relieved RP.

ps. I'd really like to have a city at NM 1 1 and a road at NM 1 1 4 before this point, so that we could bash any GoW riders that try to ride out back north to avoid death.

	20-08-2003 16:57									#37
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NYE- I'm glad you agree with my 'crazy idea' (as you yourself said once... ). We need to get rid of GoW, and we have the troops to do so, like you said, until we do, there is no chance RP will be of much help, despite their large force and small area to defend.

Landing troops to liberate the southern coast towns- a wholeheartedly yes from me, much better, quicker and less prone to attacks en route than the land route.

Perhaps we could feint against GoW's core, but that idea was rejected before, and I'm not so sure its such a good one myself anymore.

	20-08-2003 18:28									#38
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well, no matter what course we'll follow, I would not be so sure of one point mentioned in chat: Why would GoW stack everything in Salamanca, when we're following close by? Either they do defend Salamanca, or everything is put on defending the town closest to Barca... I would prefer that myself, as Salamanca is not really threatened as long as ND has a stack close by.

DeepO

	20-08-2003 22:49									#39
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Right... in the spirit of this thread, take a look at the pic below. If we need to defend Toledo for a long time (ideally by leaving it in RP's hands), we should start on that too. With enough scouts, we should be able to have a mobile defense, so that it doesn't take too many units glued to their place. The red dots are scouts, and as long as these are not roaded(with exception of the2 most Northern ones, which should not be roaded soon) we might need a couple of pikes there. After a road, 1 pike will do. The blue dots should get a road asap, in order for us to reach everything in time. After that, we can position a mobile defense somewhere close to most places, which should also be decided wrt Pamplona.



DeepO

	20-08-2003 22:52									#40
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When we're ready to launch an attack northward, one more road tile opens up the whole jungle via highway....

-=Vel=-

	20-08-2003 22:56									#41
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Yeah... I was thinking about a settler. They're not the only ones who can use that offensively. But as said, roading towards those 2 Northern scouts is no priority, the blue dots however should get a road soon, especially as now our forces can't reach the mountains North of Toledo without going through the city (and that city should go to RP)

DeepO

	20-08-2003 22:58									#42
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BTW, don't be misled: I had to take an old screenshot, currently we're missing a few roads at T2, T21, T22, T221 (one of those might have been rebuild already).

DeepO