16-08-2003 19:12									#1
	Backstabbed by all AI:s Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

I just tried to beat the game on deity level, something I have a very hard time doing. I can win easily on emperor, but deity is too tough for me. But practice makes perfect. Anyway, I started on a continent with Mongols, India and Japan. I play China. I butter up to India that is usually the cheapest civ to buy tech from and plan to war Mongols later. I get the Great Library, which makes me catch up to them in tech. Unfortunatly they rush for education leaving me without engineering and chivalry. Bastards! I buy it from India and start building my army.

Just as I start Japan decides to threaten me. I think about it a little and realize that India would provide an excellent shield and it is a good target so I tell Japan to go screw a pig. They declare war, I get India and Mongols in a military alliance against them, plus a RoP with both. Japan brings Ottomans against me. No biggie, they're on a different continent. But to be sure I ally myself with his continent buddies, Persia and Zululand against him.

Then, India decides to take a sharp blade and plant it firmly in my back and declares on me. Ouch! Fortunetly he was an idiot and didn't use it as he should (he broke a RoP and didn't even take a single city of mine). Oh well, I make peace with Japan and concentrate on India. I take one of India's cities and prepare my advance. For some reason Persia and Zulus decides to join the war on India's side against me (as far as I know we were in an alliance against Ottomans). And not long after that the Mongols decides to plant a dagger in my kidneys, effectively killing me. His 10 keshiks I thought were heading south to bash some Indians on my road network assaulted my largest cities and succeeded in doing so.

So, after having been best friends with everyone but Japan and Ottomans (polite or gracious with an alliance) I was at war with the world. I had never broken a deal, never declared a war. I had only defended myself. I have never seen an AI break a RoP before, let alone twice in the same game.

Attachment: backstab.jpg
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	16-08-2003 22:24									#2
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The price must have been right for them to do it.

A good strategy for future games is to get as many AIs as you can against the one you are warring with so that what just happened to you won't. I usually sign MPPs once war breaks out or alliances. MPPs are usually cheaper though and will quickly be activated once I allow the AI enemy to attack me.

ROPs aren't usually a big deterent when the AI declares wars I've found out. MPPs are the ticket. Of course they are a two edged sword, so I mostly sign MPPs once I've been attacked.

	16-08-2003 22:38									#3
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Never seen the AI break an RoP? It does not happen to me anymore, since I do not make RoP's. I only make alliances and a rare MPP.
I do not like MPP's as they can get you into wars that you do not want. Alliances are not going to do that.

	16-08-2003 22:43									#4
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MPPs, never.

ROPs with vassals only.

Alliances with EVERY AI civ possible... massive Theseuspiles.

	17-08-2003 02:12									#5
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There were two civs I wasn't allied with. That doesn't help when the other civs stab you in the back. RoP was needed for me to get to the Japanese through Indian territory and for Mongols to get there through mine. I'll never again use a RoP for someone to get to the war faster though, only when I need to pass through someone's territory. I prefer fighting someone one step away from me and get my "shield" to ally with me. That way I never get attacked except by ships. A RoP is necessary to get to the war faster.

I never sign MPPs either, since I hate unnecessary warring. Especially when in Republic or Democracy.

vmxa1: Why don't you sign RoP:s?

Theseus: Vassals? What defines a vassal?

	17-08-2003 03:09									#6
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Originally posted by Gufnork

"Theseus: Vassals? What defines a vassal?"

Vassal is someone you own. In this case a civ that you have been beating on from time to time. The main purpose is to get promotions and leaders.

"vmxa1: Why don't you sign RoP:s?"



Because of what just happened to you. The AI may try an RoP rape on me. If it sends in a SoD and I have an RoP, I can not aske them to leave and force a war declaration. I have to either find another way to provoke a war or wait for them to attack (well I could try to run them around in a circle).

If I want civ A to fight civ B and I am in the middle, I just let them run thorugh my land. I can stop them or force a war anytime.

Most of the time, if a civ declares war and is not in my reach, I just ignore them. Slaughter any troops they send and eventually they ask for peace. I may attempt a naval assualt, but rarely.

	18-08-2003 14:38									#7
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I don't care so much about RoP's but MPP are a never... I've had too many games in which because of it I've had to go to war with 2-3 civs that I would have liked to milk some money from... sigh....
how exactly do you get a vassal?

	18-08-2003 15:27									#8
	OFF-TOPIC Q. Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

GUFNORK,
SORRY FOR THE OFF-TOPIC QUESTION BUT HOW DI YOU ATTACH THE MINIMAP IN YOU INITIAL THREAD?
PRECISELY HOW DI YOU COPY AND HOW DI YOU ATTACH IT?
tHANKS

	18-08-2003 15:32									#9
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Wow.. that is a rare occurance, I've had 2 AIs sneak attack me without the ROP, but at seperate points in time.

Something I usually do when I want to ensure AI loyalty is to be trading resources. The AI hardly ever joins in an alliance against you (not including MPPs of course) if they depend on you in some way.

I'm not sure if gtp or luxuries will apply in this case, I think it's mostly just resources.

	19-08-2003 03:48									#10
	Re: OFF-TOPIC Q. Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by madosca GUFNORK, SORRY FOR THE OFF-TOPIC QUESTION BUT HOW DI YOU ATTACH THE MINIMAP IN YOU INITIAL THREAD? PRECISELY HOW DI YOU COPY AND HOW DI YOU ATTACH IT? tHANKS

Use Post Reply, then see the browse button. You can then point it like explorer to you jpg or whatever.
If you can it is best to resize it to 800. I use Irfanview for that. I use Hypersnap to cut them shots to smaller sizes.

	19-08-2003 03:51									#11
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quote: Originally posted by PeaSoup Wow.. that is a rare occurance, I've had 2 AIs sneak attack me without the ROP, but at seperate points in time. Something I usually do when I want to ensure AI loyalty is to be trading resources. The AI hardly ever joins in an alliance against you (not including MPPs of course) if they depend on you in some way. I'm not sure if gtp or luxuries will apply in this case, I think it's mostly just resources.

Well it is often hard to be in a position to supply resources, but a lux is not so hard. Larger civs will be very interested in a luxs, especially if they are already at war. The problem is iif they need the cash even more than the lux. I sometimes let them have it real cheap, if I do not want them to join the fray.

	19-08-2003 06:37									#12
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I have to disagree with the consensus in regards to MPP's vs. Alliances.

I prefer MPP's to alliances because of the time factor involved. An alliance lasts for 20 turns, a time that is much longer than most of the wars I fight. If you sign an MPP and it is activated (against your wishes) then you can always fight the unexpected war by proxy (unless the civ borders you, which is a war I would probably want anyway) in which you offer little support other than units to pillage, bombard and otherwise harrass the new enemy. Mpps also force other civs to regard you with respect even if your military might be slightly weaker or on par with potential enemy. Also MPP's cannot be ignored; any civ that you have a MPP with will not declare war on you until the MPP terms are complete. Finally, what the AI's do to you can also be done to the AI's themselves Make MPP's with 2 or 3 Civ's on another continent. Declare war with another civ on the continent, and send out a sacrificial unit to trigger the MPP. Then just wait out the ensuing chaos and let the other civ's beat themselves up and make you stronger in the process.

I do sign Alliances if the enemy CIV is more powerful than me, but by the time I get "UP" it is MPP's, as the CIV's are far more willing to sign them and I find them more useful.

ROP's I rarely if ever sign the AI has a tendency to ROP rape you if yiou leave even one good city unprotected. If I do sign one then I shadow any foreign units with a force to make sure of their intentions.

	19-08-2003 06:56									#13
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Nothing you mentioned is wrong, but it is not important either. What happens to you when you have just gotten peace after a many wars or a long war. Then the MPP kicks in? It is not even a question of me not sending troops, I wanted to avoid WW. I wanted some down time, so the citizens will relax. If I did not want these things, I would never have accepted peace in thte first place.

	20-08-2003 03:08									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus ROPs with vassals only.

What I love is giving Rops to the two civs i'm between and are at war with each other. Then I see streams of units fighting each other in my territory. I like to watch the carnage and figure that my roads will allow them to hurt each other more faster, and not just get bored after a few turns and make peace.

	20-08-2003 05:35									#15
	Increase Your PM Length

Stab em in the back first. That way, it's not betrayal - just revenge. I can live with revenge.

	20-08-2003 05:53									#16
	Re: OFF-TOPIC Q. Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by madosca GUFNORK, SORRY FOR THE OFF-TOPIC QUESTION BUT HOW DI YOU ATTACH THE MINIMAP IN YOU INITIAL THREAD? PRECISELY HOW DI YOU COPY AND HOW DI YOU ATTACH IT? tHANKS

WHY ARE YOU TYPING IN ALL CAPS

	20-08-2003 06:02									#17
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 Nothing you mentioned is wrong, but it is not important either. What happens to you when you have just gotten peace after a many wars or a long war. Then the MPP kicks in? It is not even a question of me not sending troops, I wanted to avoid WW. I wanted some down time, so the citizens will relax. If I did not want these things, I would never have accepted peace in thte first place.

Yes this is the largest fault with MPP's but this is actuallly a minor inconvienience.

	20-08-2003 09:16									#18
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RoP sneak attacks have happened to me quite a bit, and I don't even play deity. It's a normal thing.

	20-08-2003 10:50									#19
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quote: Originally posted by asleepathewheel What I love is giving Rops to the two civs i'm between and are at war with each other. Then I see streams of units fighting each other in my territory. I like to watch the carnage and figure that my roads will allow them to hurt each other more faster, and not just get bored after a few turns and make peace.

what's even better is to open and close passageways to each side. One time, I created a roadblock so that I could let the troops through or not as I deemed necessary and thus help the weaker civ not get destoryed.

	20-08-2003 16:26									#20
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On this map the luxuries were spread evenly so that both the mongols and indians had the same luxuries I had. And breaking the RoP:s weren't that important either, the key issue is that I ended up being at war with the world, something I certainly can't handle on Deity, despite the military alliances and RoP:s. Maybe I need to reconsider MPPs, If this happens I'll be screwed, so I have to live with unwanted wars.

	20-08-2003 17:56									#21
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this one time, I signed a MPP with a powerful civ, and the civ I was already fighting actually stopped advancing into my territory to avoid triggering the MPP.. even when I left several workers near my boarder, the AI wouldn't take the bait.

Similarly, I've seen the AI cancel MPPs with one another when one civ has been thrust into war.

	20-08-2003 20:00									#22
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quote: Originally posted by badams52 what's even better is to open and close passageways to each side. One time, I created a roadblock so that I could let the troops through or not as I deemed necessary and thus help the weaker civ not get destoryed.

done and done. enjoyed doing it. like those games where I can do this. makes more enjoyable for me.

	27-08-2003 01:58									#23
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quote: Originally posted by PeaSoup this one time, I signed a MPP with a powerful civ, and the civ I was already fighting actually stopped advancing into my territory to avoid triggering the MPP.. even when I left several workers near my boarder, the AI wouldn't take the bait. Similarly, I've seen the AI cancel MPPs with one another when one civ has been thrust into war.

MPP's Can't be cancelled (a war declaration is the only exception) that is the main reason I prefer them to Alliances. The AI's can make peace, but the MPP will still be active.

	27-08-2003 02:43									#24
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You know, nuclear weapons could be useful in that situation (a heckuva lot of them)

	27-08-2003 04:45									#25
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Yeah, that would take care of those elephants and keshik they were invading me with, that's true...

	27-08-2003 06:03									#26
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker You know, nuclear weapons could be useful in that situation (a heckuva lot of them)

A basic truth, for all occasions.

	01-09-2003 16:09									#27
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long live alliances

then turn their cities into ruins