17-08-2003 12:05									#1
	Magic: the Gathering goes hybrid fantasy! End of the world as we knew it? Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

A Peruvian website has obtained (no doubt from mtgnews or another spoon-fed "rumor" site) artwork from the upcoming Mirrodin expansion.

http://www.afn.org/~afn50094/ilustraciones.html

The tone is decidedly science fiction-y. The official Wizards of the Coasts boards are in uproar, predicting (yet again) the death of Magic: the Gathering.

Now I'm no expert, but I think the new art looks super-cool. And I also question how people could accept Anne McCaffrey's Dragons of Pern and not accept hybrid fantasy in Magic.

	17-08-2003 14:48									#2
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I see Icy Manipulator is back ... and I agree: the artwork does look mostly good

	17-08-2003 16:19									#3
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Yeah, do you get planeswalkers in Dragonriders of Pern? Eh, do you?

	17-08-2003 16:42									#4
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Magic fans are so conservative. The best thing about the game is how the rules are constantly changing and updating to keep it fresh, and yet any time something is changed the fans predict doom and gloom for the game.

	17-08-2003 16:46									#5
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Besides, they're probably fakes anyway.

	17-08-2003 20:42									#6
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quote: Originally posted by FrustratedPoet The best thing about the game is how the rules are constantly changing and updating to keep it fresh

That's why you need a team of lawyers to figure things out

	17-08-2003 21:21									#7
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End of the world? Doubt it. Especially since I hardly know what it's all about. Is it this card thing?

	17-08-2003 21:58									#8
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None of that art looks especially sci-fi to me. The Magic game has had similiar stuff since way back in the beginning, especially in the Antiquities expansion, the one with all the artifacts.

And it does look pretty cool.

	17-08-2003 22:57									#9
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Platinum Angel- looks nearly unglued

	18-08-2003 00:08									#10
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This game became crap around Mirage if not sooner.

	18-08-2003 08:19									#11
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This game was, is, and always will be witchcraft!

	18-08-2003 11:36									#12
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for 8th edition they are changing the card face.
fortunately, the cards back is not changed.
look at this:

Attachment: magic.jpg
This has been downloaded 58 time(s).

Last edited by zorbop on 18-08-2003 at 11:44

	18-08-2003 15:48									#13
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I have some of the new-face cards, and my verdict is definitely .

quote: Platinum Angel- looks nearly unglued

Have you heard about what her ability allegedly is?

	18-08-2003 15:53									#14
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So if you have spent loads of cash on cards are they suddenly worthless?

	18-08-2003 16:09									#15
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I wouldn't be surprised, the cards are from the same company (Wizards of the Coast) that hold the Dungeons and Dragons franchise, and they're always bringing out new editions, meaning one has to buy all the new books (books, not just book) every year or so. Of course characters created in the old system are obselete. I wouldn't be surprised if they're appying the same marketing stratagy to the M:TG cards too.
But WotC are not alone... Games Workshop, the international board and war games company has a policy of regular new rule editions, requiring the customer to purchase not only the new rule sest, but whole new lead figure armies. Of course, people do.
At least people are getting wise to it slowly. There are clubs which play only with old rule sets, and how many people rushed out to buy Windows XP and de-installed 98 or 2000? This shows there is some hope for the endless update money grabbing.

-Jam

	19-08-2003 01:08									#16
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quote: Originally posted by DrSpike So if you have spent loads of cash on cards are they suddenly worthless?

no. you can still use the old cards, since the back remains the same. this, of course, probobly won't apply to tournaments.

	19-08-2003 01:51									#17
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Um... guys. WotC is not suicidally stupid. They knew that the old-guard would be pissed at any change anyway; do you think they would actually invalidate all the old cards to give a REAL reason? People would leave Magic in droves. It's a long standing rule in tournaments as well as casual play that as long as a card is legal, you can use any edition of it. So in other words, it doesn't matter if you use a Shivan Dragon from the Beta printing, 4th edition, 7th edition, or an 8th edition one with the new card face. Frankly, most people try and play with the oldest cards possible in tournaments already, to show off how long they've been playing (or how much $$ they have).

	19-08-2003 02:52									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Mr. President I have some of the new-face cards, and my verdict is definitely . Have you heard about what her ability allegedly is?

Well, on the site with the artwork, it said "You may not win the game, your opponents may not lose" or some combo of them.

	19-08-2003 02:54									#19
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Wow, what a dumbass card that is then.

	19-08-2003 02:54									#20
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Sorry- it actually reads

quote: You may not lose the game. Your opponents may not win the game.

	19-08-2003 08:41									#21
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I just don't know if it can be true.

If it is, every tournament (especially Type 1, where you could cast her on the first turn with a favorable draw) deck is going to get one. Probably two or three.

On the sci-fi topic, some earlier cards with almost science-fictiony art are

Dragon Engine

http://www.essentialmagic.com/cards...rd.asp?ID=15412

Umbilicus

http://www.essentialmagic.com/cards...ard.asp?ID=8810

Power Armor

http://www.essentialmagic.com/cards...rd.asp?ID=23222

Urza's Rage

http://www.essentialmagic.com/cards...rd.asp?ID=23087

Stratadon

http://www.essentialmagic.com/cards...rd.asp?ID=25869

So there's certainly a precedent.

	19-08-2003 10:46									#22
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Nah, I highly doubt that. Simply put, Platinum Angel (I think that's the name I read) doesn't win you the game in Type I, at least not very fast. And there's loads more artifact removal running around Type I, anyway. There are other combos that actively win you the game, so why not use those? Now, how broken that ability is really depends on casting cost. For 4 mana, it's broken. 6 mana would make it awesome, but beatable. 8 mana is eminently balanced.

Anyway, to beat Platinum Angel, you merely have to have one of the following:
-Any kind of bounce, used once you've "won" the game
-Any kind of artifact removal
-A counter ready when it's cast
-Any kind of targeted creature removal, or proper untargeted removal (Wrath of God, Chainer's Edict when you've killed his other creatures, etc.).
-Kill them before they can draw/cast it. With the slower mana acceleration in Type II, that may be easier than you think.

More interesting will be the rules issues. I'm guessing Platinum Angel's ability will always win, but I'm not sure if that makes sense with the whole timestamp stuff. If you cast Platinum Angel, then I cast Test of Endurance at 100 life, shouldn't the later Test's "you win" overwrite "can't win?" Probably not, but oh well.

	19-08-2003 18:34									#23
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How can you have an artifact set and not be science fiction-y?

	19-08-2003 20:33									#24
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quote: Originally posted by SnowFire Anyway, to beat Platinum Angel, you merely have to have one of the following: -Any kind of bounce, used once you've "won" the game -Any kind of artifact removal -A counter ready when it's cast -Any kind of targeted creature removal, or proper untargeted removal (Wrath of God, Chainer's Edict when you've killed his other creatures, etc.). -Kill them before they can draw/cast it. With the slower mana acceleration in Type II, that may be easier than you think.

You forgot Control Magic and Steal Artifacrt

What happens if both sides got it out?

	19-08-2003 20:35									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Jamski At least people are getting wise to it slowly. There are clubs which play only with old rule sets, and how many people rushed out to buy Windows XP and de-installed 98 or 2000? This shows there is some hope for the endless update money grabbing.

You sound pretty angry.

Welcome to the club.

	19-08-2003 22:45									#26
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quote: More interesting will be the rules issues. I'm guessing Platinum Angel's ability will always win, but I'm not sure if that makes sense with the whole timestamp stuff. If you cast Platinum Angel, then I cast Test of Endurance at 100 life, shouldn't the later Test's "you win" overwrite "can't win?" Probably not, but oh well.

I'm guessing that's why they worded the platinum angel both ways, to stop your opponent winning from an alternative win condition. Although I agree this does fly in the face of the rules: you have 0 life, but can't lose; you have no cards to draw when you should, but you don't lose; you have 10 poison counters, but can't lose; your opponent has Battle of Wits (or similar) but can't win. And all because of the Golden Rule:

103.1 The Magic Golden Rule: Whenever a card's text directly contradicts these rules, the card takes precedence. The card overrides only the rule that applies to that specific situation. If an instruction requires taking an impossible action, it's ignored.

103.2 When one effect says something can happen and another says it can't, the "can't" effect wins.

	20-08-2003 07:18									#27
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That's why the game struck me like a strange version of Cosmic Encounter, where rules are made to be broken by "powers," and power conflicts kept stacking up.

Oh, of course, the ever increasing number of expansion sets and introduction of new rules.

	20-08-2003 08:33									#28
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That's why you make house rules. My sister and I have like a dozen that directly contradict the offical rules.

Although I do agree that there are too many expansions.

Does anyone think Icy Manipulator is really coming back for Mirrodin?

I've also heard that Ornithopter and Tetravus may be reprinted.

	21-08-2003 00:01									#29
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quote: Does anyone think Icy Manipulator is really coming back for Mirrodin?

Well your Peruvian sourced artwork would indicate that, but www.mtgnews.com has not listed this under its partial spoiler (which does however contain "Terror"). Also "Atog" and "Shatter" are back.

	21-08-2003 00:15									#30
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quote: most people try and play with the oldest cards possible in tournaments already, to show off how long they've been playing

I would say the latter. I always admired those who played with older stuff than I had because it usually meant that those players had played for quite some time.

As for the Platinum Angel, I wonder how that would work with the cards that force you to pay a cumulative upkeep in life? You could use them for as long as you want.