17-08-2003 12:26									#1
	First Danish casualty in Iraq conflict Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

So, now our participation in the "Coalition if Willing" has cost the first Danish soldier his life. Apparently a group of Danish troops were on patrol yesterday, when they stopped a suspicious looking truck. A firefight then erupted, in which the soldier and two Iraqis were killed. Six Iraqis were arrested.

Now I wonder...why the heck didn't they kill them all, instead of arresting them. Why bother taking them in?

If it were me, with my comrade lying dead on the ground, it sure wouldn't take me long time to put my rifle on automatic, and start sprayin' them bullets.

That's probably why I'm not in Iraq, though

Asmodean

	17-08-2003 12:33									#2
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we, and by we i mean the civilized western world, take the moral high road. we take prisioners. we try to be humane. and it gets us nowhere.

sure, we feel better about ourselves when the day is done, but what do we get? we get enemies who seem barbaric, and will do anything to take pot shots, which in turn leads to the general failure of operations due to public opinion shift (case in point, nam).

we also get torn to pieces whenever he have to do something that seems barbaric, like beat the hell out of some guy for information, or bomb missle silos near a residential village.

it's pure and utter bullsh!t.

oh, and this loss saddens me, but i am proud that the danes are with us on such a historic mission

	17-08-2003 22:11									#3
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Apparently the Danish soldiers spotted a group of nine Iraqis, stealing powerlines near the road. Supposedly powerline-stealing is pretty big in the area around Basra.

Think about it. Get yourself killed, trying to stop a guy stealing powerlines

Asmodean

	17-08-2003 22:16									#4
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We take prisoners for the potential intel benefit. You can't interrogate the dead.

Although, frankly, if the Danes had hosed those bastards (the trick is to not give them enough time to get their hands up), and hung the bodies upside down to rot from the powerlines they stole pour encourager les outres, I wouldn't have got bent out of shape.

	17-08-2003 22:18									#5
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If at any point the 6 Iraqis gave up, or the Danes overwhlemed them and got control of them, then they have to take them as prisoners legally.

	17-08-2003 22:20									#6
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Hence my clarification about how to avoid that "problem."

	17-08-2003 22:22									#7
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GePap: I know, I know. It's just, you know, frustrating. Especially when you think about the crime that was being perpetrated.

But yeah: I'm pro human rights, rules of engagement and all that stuff. The world wouldn't function without them.

Asmodean

	17-08-2003 22:27									#8
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat Hence my clarification about how to avoid that "problem."

If a local Iraqi court wants to behead the men, fine, but if the danes go kill guys who were trying to give up and local family members find out, you porbably have more trouble with revenge seekers. The immidiate emotional satisfaction ain't worth it.

	17-08-2003 22:33									#9
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Thieves don't get much sympathy.

Besides, who's talking revenge? I'm just talking setting up fields of fire and deploying in such a way that if one even starts getting squirrely, you can hose 'em all then and there, before they get a chance to effectively resist.

Do that once or twice, then the word will be around that you don't **** with those guys when they move in to detain you.

	17-08-2003 22:36									#10
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat Thieves don't get much sympathy.

They do from family members.

quote: Do that once or twice, then the word will be around that you don't **** with those guys when they move in to detain you.

So now we arwe talking about arrests?

	17-08-2003 22:53									#11
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A firefight is what happens when they resist, an "arrest" is what happens when they don't resist. It's all the same process at the outset, it just depends on which way the *******s want to play.

	18-08-2003 00:04									#12
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quote: and hung the bodies upside down to rot from the powerlines they stole pour encourager les outres

I think it should be "discourager les outres".

	18-08-2003 00:07									#13
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I thought he meant encouraging Iraqis to kill some occupation soldiers.

	18-08-2003 00:22									#14
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no he meant 'to encourage the others' (it makes more sense in french) basically to show others what happens to people who resist.

	18-08-2003 00:28									#15
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Or steal infrastructure that's critical to other Iraqis.

	18-08-2003 00:32									#16
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I know what that means. I actually remember the expression, but I always thought I remembered it the wrong way.

Hersh: 9.2/10

	18-08-2003 00:43									#17
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TV news reported that an investigation will be started to clearify if the guy was killed by his own buddies in the heat of the battle. There were two Danish teams, the second one arriving later as reinforcement.

	18-08-2003 01:39									#18
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that's not funny ajbera

	18-08-2003 01:41									#19
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It wasn't, and it's gone.

	18-08-2003 01:43									#20
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I disagree. Humor is not the same among all people. See the "2 Gruesome Deaths in 1 Thread" thread.

FWIW, I regret the loss of life, particularly under these circumstances. It doesn't mean I won't try to find some humor in it. When I kick the bucket, I hope someone is able to get a chuckle from my death as well.

	18-08-2003 01:45									#21
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It was humorous, but it doesn't surprise me that others don't find it to be that way.

	18-08-2003 13:19									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Olaf Hårfagre TV news reported that an investigation will be started to clearify if the guy was killed by his own buddies in the heat of the battle. There were two Danish teams, the second one arriving later as reinforcement.

When a lot of things happen very quickly in battle, the question always arises: Was it friendly fire or not. It could have been, but let's wait and see what the investigation produces.

Asmodean

	25-08-2003 16:23									#23
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According to Swedish newspaper DN, the investigation by CSI specialists from Danish police has shown that the Dane was killed by his buddies and that the "theifs" were unarmed fishermen.

Influenced by American trigger-happiness huh?

	26-08-2003 01:10									#24
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YEP, until now, we were spoon-fed with the stories of a dramatic firefight against Iraqi criminals. The Danes shot at civilians, neither of which carried any weapons and even managed to take down one of their own in the process. How very tragic, unnescessary and embarrasing, both the episode itself and the reaction.

Edit - in times of war, truth is the first victim. How very convienient for the Danish military -

	26-08-2003 01:15									#25
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Was the troll really needed, Olaf?

	26-08-2003 01:24									#26
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You're right, trigger-happiness sure isn't an American phenomenon.

	26-08-2003 02:06									#27
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There was a reconstruction of the shooting on Swedish television earlier tonight. See the pic below for my reconstruction of the reconstruction

D1, D2, and D3 are Danish soldiers. i1 and i2 are Iraqi fishermen in the lorry.

The scenario is the following:

1. It is dark outside.
2. D1 climbs up on the lorry to watch the people inside.
3. D2 mistakes D1 for an armed Iraqi and fires, killing D1.
4. D3 thinks it was the people inside the lorry that fired and returns fire, killing i1 and i2.

Attachment: lorry.jpg
This has been downloaded 57 time(s).

	27-08-2003 16:35									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Olaf Hårfagre According to Swedish newspaper DN, the investigation by CSI specialists from Danish police has shown that the Dane was killed by his buddies and that the "theifs" were unarmed fishermen. Influenced by American trigger-happiness huh?

Yeah...like the danish military makes a point of killing as many unarmed fishermen as possible. GET REAL.

Asmodean

	27-08-2003 18:20									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Asmodean Yeah...like the danish military makes a point of killing as many unarmed fishermen as possible. GET REAL. Asmodean

I quote your initial post:

quote: Now I wonder...why the heck didn't they kill them all, instead of arresting them. Why bother taking them in?

	28-08-2003 17:47									#30
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Let's just concentrate on the facts here, shall we?

At the time of my posting this, I, and the rest of Denmarl, thought that there had been a firefight, in which a Danish soldier had been killed. It was also thought that the guys that killed this Danish soldier were mere thieves. So please forgive me for being a little overheated at that point.

Now to respong to your post, Olaf. Do you seriously believe that the Danish army, or any of it's employees would even consider killing unarmed fishermen. These guys were on patrol, it was dark, they were heading home to base, so they were probably tired. A lorry appears. They stop it. Soldier A get's on the lorry. Soldier B mistakes soldier A for an armed hostile (he fvcked up, I'll grant you that) and kills soldier A. Soldier C hears the shot, thinking that his comrades are fired upon (and maybe seeing soldier A falling to the ground). So he opens up on Iraqis A, B and C, killing 2 and wounding 1. That's what happened. These things happen in tense situations, where people are armed.

It's regrettable, but a fact of life, that soldiers, however well trained, sometimes do make mistakes. When a soldier makes a mistake, more often than not, it costs the lives of some of his comrades, and maybe innocent civilians as well. If you present a solution to that, well then I think you are a candidate for the Nobel Peace Prize.

But to suggest that the Danish army would willingly kill innocent non-combatants, well that frankly is an insult to me as a dane, and to the Danish army as an institution.

Asmodean