17-08-2003 23:09									#1
	Early game secret projects - how and when to build them? Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

How do people here go about snagging those vital early game SPs? Do you go for only one at a time or start building many at the same time? Do you wait for crawlers? How many bases do you assign for building those SPs? Do you crawler-rush the projects? Do you neglect building colony pods so that you'd get the SPs underway sooner? Do your strategies differ for SP and MP?

My current method with the University is building one colony pod and two formers in my first two bases and then rushing RCs and RTs as soon as possible. After that, I start building enough crawlers so that I start getting ecodamage (16-20 minerals). It's only at this point that I start building my first project, which is usually the VW. By this point the AI is usually well underway with their projects. I do usually manage to get the VW, but I'd also like to have the HGP and the WP, but the AI often gets one or both of them.

I use all my early AAs for the projects, but I hesitate to sacrifice the crawlers that bring those much needed early minerals, unless I see that the AI will complete its project in one turn. Would it be better, especially in MP, to sacrifice those crawlers in order to get the projects completed ASAP, even if it meant rebuilding the crawlers from scratch afterwards?

	18-08-2003 00:29									#2
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With most factions, I wait for crawlers before even starting any projects, and even then I don't have any bases overtly work on projects. I select a few bases to make and gather crawlers. Once I have enough together, I upgrade them if it's profitable and build a project in one turn.

I neglect building some colony pods, but I often don't even start working on the crawlers until I've hit or passed my bureaucracy limit, at which point the pods are producing diminishing returns.

With most factions, I pump out a former first, then a colony pod, then maybe another former, and another colony pod from earlier bases, to jump to the bureaucracy limit quickly, then I rush rec tanks and maybe rec commons and start building crawlers. Once a base has a crawler on a forest, it's a candidate for helping a project. Any artifacts are not cashed for techs but held for the first project.

I would say that if you wait until your bases are causing ecodamage, you've waited much too long to start a project, and in MP you would usually be beaten to the first several. On the other hand you could grab a few of the second tier of more expensive projects, if your tech rate is good.

It would be informative if you would post about when (by mission year) you finish your first project. In multiplayer TCP/IP accelerated conditions, I or someone else finishes the first project between 2125 and 2140, depending on artifacts.

	18-08-2003 00:53									#3
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quote: Originally posted by Chaos Theory With most factions, I wait for crawlers before even starting any projects, and even then I don't have any bases overtly work on projects. I select a few bases to make and gather crawlers. Once I have enough together, I upgrade them if it's profitable and build a project in one turn. I neglect building some colony pods, but I often don't even start working on the crawlers until I've hit or passed my bureaucracy limit, at which point the pods are producing diminishing returns. With most factions, I pump out a former first, then a colony pod, then maybe another former, and another colony pod from earlier bases, to jump to the bureaucracy limit quickly, then I rush rec tanks and maybe rec commons and start building crawlers. Once a base has a crawler on a forest, it's a candidate for helping a project. Any artifacts are not cashed for techs but held for the first project. I would say that if you wait until your bases are causing ecodamage, you've waited much too long to start a project, and in MP you would usually be beaten to the first several. On the other hand you could grab a few of the second tier of more expensive projects, if your tech rate is good. It would be informative if you would post about when (by mission year) you finish your first project. In multiplayer TCP/IP accelerated conditions, I or someone else finishes the first project between 2125 and 2140, depending on artifacts.

I have to say this method sounds a lot better than the one I've been using. I've been hard pressed to complete my first project in 1950 (single player, normal map), even with artifacts. I have to try this and see how it works out.

	18-08-2003 09:38									#4
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quote: I've been hard pressed to complete my first project in 1950

No kidding, considering the game starts at 2100

I've had SP's built several times as early as 2110-15 with a little luck. Usually though, it's closer to the time Chaos Theory said, ~2135 or so.

	19-08-2003 02:04									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Minute Mirage I have to say this method sounds a lot better than the one I've been using. I've been hard pressed to complete my first project in 1950 (single player, normal map), even with artifacts. I have to try this and see how it works out.

I usually like to have at least one finished and a second starting by 650 BC, ... OOPS, wrong game

Seriously, in Civ2 i usually wait till im at least close to caravans before starting a wonder. In SMAC crawlers come later than Civ2 camels, and yet good SP's still come up earlier, so it really seems you need to start on the SP's before you have crawlers/

	19-08-2003 03:24									#6
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The reason you see SPs arrive earlier than in Civ2 is the presence of Alien Artifacts.

	19-08-2003 03:55									#7
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark Seriously, in Civ2 i usually wait till im at least close to caravans before starting a wonder. In SMAC crawlers come later than Civ2 camels, and yet good SP's still come up earlier, so it really seems you need to start on the SP's before you have crawlers/

This really depends on the game. With directed research and playing a builder faction I very rarely start an SP before crawlers.

	19-08-2003 04:14									#8
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Considering that I rarely use Crawlers, I typically make a rush for HGP, WP, and Command Nexus as soon as I can get a base that has +3 Minerals and positive Nutrients (+1 or 2 is good enough early on -- I expect that some terraforming will help raise both stats by the time the project nears completion). Usually, this is after the base pumps out a Former, a Colony Pod or two, and a recreation commons. The rec. commons is important seeing how most HGP-less factions get their first drone around 4 or 5 population. *Nothing* sucks like losing a key project to a well timed drone riot.... Considering how important the first three projects are, getting them first can mean the difference between a hard & easy game.

	19-08-2003 06:44									#9
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Hell, if I had to wait until Crawlers, I would surely miss the early SPs all together. My style is close to what igtenos described. And it doesn't really much depend on the faction I play. For the first few bases (usually two or three) I build in each a Former, one Colony Pod, rush-build (when possible, and I never hesitate to spend money on this) RT and RC. Building RT pays off on the time span needed to complete one SP. Hence RT is always worth building before starting a SP. Thus, I usually have two or three bases dedicated to SPs as soon as I 've built the mentioned items and as soon as I have at least one more base to dedicate to further expansion or building military units. In the case of a base very rich in minerals but very poor in food, I skip Colony Pod and RC (the base won't grow above the size 2 anyway), and such a base permits to start SPs really early on. I often start the same SP in several bases with the hope to catch up on research and switch the production later. This "strategy" works pretty well for me, and of the first four SPs (HGP, WP, ME, VW) I usually miss one at most, and pretty often grab them all.

	19-08-2003 08:16									#10
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igtenos said:
"...most HGP-less factions get their first drone around 4 or 5 population"

What difficulty level are you playing on? Everything I said is for transcend level, where most HGP-less factions get their first drone at 2 population.

And an open question: just how much is each secret project worth? That is, how much should you slow your production to snag a project? This differs by faction, of course, depending on how much bureaucracy hurts.

If I assign anything to a project before crawlers help spread
the cost, I assign just one base, because all the rest are making colony pods, formers, rec tanks, or possibly even military units if I have a neighbor.

Also, Industrial Automation is usually the fifth or sixth tech I research. I beeline for it, except I pick Centauri Ecology as soon as possible (with most factions).

	19-08-2003 18:34									#11
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quote: Originally posted by CEO Aaron The reason you see SPs arrive earlier than in Civ2 is the presence of Alien Artifacts.

so you used the artifacts for SP'S and not for techs - thats what ive mainly been using them for so far - but that may he hurting me - it can slow a tech beeline, IIUC, and it forces me to build network nodes earlier than i might otherwise.

	19-08-2003 18:35									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Sikander This really depends on the game. With directed research and playing a builder faction I very rarely start an SP before crawlers.

I probably need to refine my tech beelining.

	19-08-2003 19:21									#13
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quote: Originally posted by BustaMike No kidding, considering the game starts at 2100

No wonder it's been so difficult!


Anyway, how about some faction specific pondering:

If I'm playing the University in a multiplayer game, should I first go for the Virtual World despite its higher cost, or would I be better off getting the HGP? I assume it's quite improbable to get both of them in MP. And how important is the Weather Paradigm for the University compared to those two projects?

	20-08-2003 01:51									#14
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The VW is such a nice fit with the University, it would have to be pretty high on the priority list, IMhO, higher than the HGP, although the HGP comes earlier in the tech tree and is cheaper.

Disbanding scouts or other cheap units to accelerate SP's is a feasible approach for the pre-IndAuto period. A neighboring base with good min production can produce a scout each turn and ship it off to the SP building base and significantly contribute to the SP effort; being tilted toward min production, it'll have little growth and thus won't be likely to grow into drone riot territory quickly, if at all. Ideally, that base would also have good energy production and whatever facilities were available so that it was also contributing to the overall Econ and Labs picture, but that's probably asking a lot.

	20-08-2003 01:57									#15
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark so you used the artifacts for SP'S and not for techs - thats what ive mainly been using them for so far - but that may he hurting me - it can slow a tech beeline, IIUC, and it forces me to build network nodes earlier than i might otherwise.

Yes, I use AA's for Secret Project construction almost exclusively, at least until I've gotten to Environmental Economics. The earlier you use the AA, for whatver use, the earlier you start to accrue whatever advantages they convey, and I don't want to divert from my buildup to construct Network Nodes.

quote: Originally posted by And an open question: just how much is each secret project worth? That is, how much should you slow your production to snag a project? This differs by faction, of course, depending on how much bureaucracy hurts.

In the long run, every early SP is worth far more than the minerals they cost to build. When contemplating when to build an SP, my concern is how I can contrive to capture as many of them as possible, with a particular eye toward getting the ones I consider especially critical: WP/HGP/VW. Typically I'll pause sometime between the first and second bureaucracy limits, and start crash-building projects.

My ratings for early Projects:

1: Weather Paradigm: Definitely the premier builder SP, this allows you to subvert nutrient production limits, as well as accelerate terraforming in general. This is invariably the SP I'll build first, using AA's to do so, if possible.

2: Human Genome Project: Another very solid contender, early on, this allows you to expand to the second bureaucracy limit without concerning yourself with building Rec Commons, and later on, it allows much easier access to the coveted Golden Age, for good improvements in growth, economy and efficiency.

3: Virtual World: Utterly critical for University, but highly useful for everyone else, since Hologram Theatres are time-consuming to build and have a prohibitive upkeep at 3 ECs each.

4: Command Nexxus: While early on it's possible to make do with fewer Command Centers, but as the game progresses, you'll eventually want to build them everywhere as your military production begins to ramp up for the slugfest endgame. In addition, as you discover more reactor types, the upkeep costs for Command Centers increases, making the Command Nexxus a better deal as time goes by.

5: Planetary Energy Grid: For Morgan, or anyone who plans to spend a large portion of the game in Free Market, this is a very useful SP, but since most momentum factions will consider this a lower priority, it's safe to leave this til more coveted projects have been captured. It's worth noting however that if you're using crawler upgrades, the additional income from PEG can enable you to grab more projects faster than if you'd built it later, so in some circumstances, consider this a higher priority.

6: Empath Guild: Odds are the tech and economic benefits of this project will not be immediately apparent, however holding the EG offers considerable strategic benefit. It offers easier access to Planetary Governorship, and if you're playing Lal, it makes the Governorship, and in all probability the game, a virtual lock. All in all, a solid project, but certainly more useful for certain strategies.

7: Merchant Exchange: The merits of this SP don't really reveal themselves until the late game. Early on, the additional energy income won't really significantly improve your development. If, in the mid-late game, you wind up building an energy-park and crawling energy back to the base in which this SP has been built, its benefits can become quite pronounced. If that base also has some of the tech-magifying SPs (Theory of Everything, Network Backbone, etc...) those benefits will be commensurately magnified.

8: Planetary Transit System: I'm not a big fan of this SP, since by the time it is usually built, if your development is healthy, you're not going to make too many more bases. If you're pursuing an ICS strategy, or if your SE restrictions keep you from Pop-booming easily, PTS can offer some useful benefits.

9: Neural Amplifier: This project can be an utter klinker for some factions, but if you're a free marketeer, it can offer some convenient benefits, allowing your formers and crawlers some modicum of protection against roving native life, without inflating their cost by adding trance capability. Also, if your combat strategy makes extensive use of native life, you'll want to coopt this SP simply to prevent your victims, I mean rivals, can't have it.

The subsequent SPs, in my opinion, are too deep in the tech tree to be considered early game, and unless your tech rate is profoundly good, there will be a lull in SP building while you divert your production toward either military efforts or the leap to tree farms and fusion power.

PS: Apologies for the long post.

	20-08-2003 02:55									#16
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quote: 8: Planetary Transit System: I'm not a big fan of this SP, since by the time it is usually built, if your development is healthy, you're not going to make too many more bases. If you're pursuing an ICS strategy, or if your SE restrictions keep you from Pop-booming easily, PTS can offer some useful benefits.

This SP is much more powerful than you're giving it credit for, especially if you can get it early. All your bases are now size 3, as is any new base you make. The extra energy and production you gain from this can make a HUGE difference early on, often doubling your production capability. You can also squeeze out one or two more bases (size 3 ) w/o fear of drones because it reduces drones in small bases by 1. If there is one SP that's important to get early on, this is it.

	20-08-2003 03:20									#17
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I agree that most SPs are worth much more than their mineral costs, but the same goes for colony pods, so the issue is which is worth more than the other, and when?

	20-08-2003 07:45									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Chaos Theory I agree that most SPs are worth much more than their mineral costs, but the same goes for colony pods, so the issue is which is worth more than the other, and when?

You must continue growth, so you must go for colony pods first.

Usually I like to get about 5-6 bases established before I start to devote one or more of them to SPs. Then I continue making colony pods with the high nutrient output bases and start SPs with the high mineral output bases.

It is more important to have sufficient mass to grow, compete with your opponents, and survive than it is to have SPs. If you lose out on an SP race, depending upon how close the SP is to your territory, you may still be able to get it so long as you have enough mass to take it. If it looks like you may lose an SP race you must win (i.e. VW for University) and it looks like you won't be able to get it easily through capture then do what you have to (and can) to prioritize it over new colony pods.

If you don't develop enough bases to have enough mass to present an adequate defense, you won't be able to keep any SPs you develop if a bigger faction can get to you before you get to reap the benefits of the SPs.


I agree with most of CEO Aaron's lengthy but very accurate and useful evaluation of the values of each early SP. I do like (but don't absolutely need) the PTS. I don't often get it (until I capture it), but when I do, it allows my new bases the ability to defend and develop themselves almost immediately.


Mead


PS. I love CEO Aaron's observation of Neural Amp, particularly if you later intend on getting, and using, the Dream Twister.

	20-08-2003 12:01									#19
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark I probably need to refine my tech beelining.

It helped my game immensely to do so. You can beeline to crawlers very quickly, usually with only one or two "extra" techs. For me those techs are Centauri Ecology (usually my first tech chosen) and the tech that allows you recycling tanks and the HGP. With a huge planet playing the University I can usually get there by the late 2220s to the early 2230s. Other factions typically take a bit longer, but even the Hive can get there by 2150 fairly easily. Bad terrain can hinder this, but assuming decent starting terrain these estimates are very do-able.

	20-08-2003 12:12									#20
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Of course Neural Amp is crucial for DeeDee, just to stop anyone else getting it and killing your worms, and there's a certain sense in rushing for the VW if playing against Zak, especially in MP. Getting the Empath Guild is great for Morgan, as the practically guarranteed govenorship gives you then +2 commerce (get those global trade pacts going) PTS is only really usefull if you have a good police rating, and some terraforming already in place for the new site, otherwise my new size three base riots and starves back to size one in two turns, so often I wish I hadn't build the darn thing :P

WP : If I don't get it, I really miss it.

-Jam

	20-08-2003 17:33									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Chaos Theory igtenos said: "...most HGP-less factions get their first drone around 4 or 5 population" What difficulty level are you playing on? Everything I said is for transcend level, where most HGP-less factions get their first drone at 2 population.

Sorry -- I mainly play on Thinker.

quote: And an open question: just how much is each secret project worth? That is, how much should you slow your production to snag a project? This differs by faction, of course, depending on how much bureaucracy hurts.

Depends on the faction & your personal tactics. Personally, I prefer to take the 'slow road' to the ICS. Once I have about 3-4 bases, it's strictly Garrison/Former/Colony then start building base facilities (usually Rec. Commons & if I have Ethical Calculus early enough, Children's Chreches) and the early projects like WP & HGP provided the mineral count is high enough. The new bases build repeat the process until I start hitting those beauracracy warnings.

But I think most of them, especially the early ones, can be decisive in determining how your games more often then not turns out in the end.

quote: If I assign anything to a project before crawlers help spread the cost, I assign just one base, because all the rest are making colony pods, formers, rec tanks, or possibly even military units if I have a neighbor. Also, Industrial Automation is usually the fifth or sixth tech I research. I beeline for it, except I pick Centauri Ecology as soon as possible (with most factions).

I'm the wacko here as I have yet to use crawlers extensively since in most cases extensive 'forming, pop booming, and building the right base facilities will usually provide enough minerals to get by.

	20-08-2003 18:32									#22
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CEO Aaron wrote:

quote: The reason you see SPs arrive earlier than in Civ2 is the presence of Alien Artifacts.

I think there are other reasons as well.
1. The early-game SP's are much more useful than the early-game Civ II wonders, since they never become obsolete.
2. Multiplayer exists for SMAC, and I think we are including MP in the consideration of "how early SP's come. Competition for Wonders/SP by humans who realize their importance and are capable of building them faster than AI's (despite the AI's industry bonuses) means faster completion of the first ones.
3. Certainly among humans, and arguably among AI's, IA comes faster than Trade did in Civ II. It's five techs, all of them useful and several of them immediately useful.
4. SC's, once they're allowed, can be built faster than caravans (usually <= 30 production instead of 50), especially if one is running planned/wealth.
5. SMAC's design encourages ICS, which in turn speeds up early production.

USC

	20-08-2003 23:40									#23
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How : AA's , mined mineral resoures, crawlers.

When : the speed will prob be determined by the 3 things above, quickest on the left. If you're lucky and get 2-3 AA's you can get a SP straight away really, even 1 AA or a mineral count of 8 ensures that you get 1 by 2135. Normally once my inner ring of bases is done i'll set about getting a base near mineral resouces up high or when i get crawlers ill push 2-3 bases upto 20 minerals and leave them to get the SP's. Once theres none that i want they build crawlers give them to the weaker bases that pumped them up (switch base not donate minerals incase you're thinking that)

	21-08-2003 07:41									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Jamski *** PTS is only really usefull if you have a good police rating, and some terraforming already in place for the new site, otherwise my new size three base riots and starves back to size one in two turns, so often I wish I hadn't build the darn thing :P WP : If I don't get it, I really miss it. -Jam

If you do get PTS you have to be mindful of where you place your new bases.

If your new bases are not near already teraformed sites or special nutrient squares you're going to go from that 3 population to 2 population real quick.

You can counteract the poor police rating by rush building stuff like police units or rec commons. You can also transfer and base air or other units there immediately after you establish the base.

In the end though, although I like the PTS it is not a SP that I would worry too much about missing out on. It can be useful, but requires some care after you get it.

The Cloning Vats, a far more powerful and useful (many would say essential), SP is similar in that once you get it, you better be prepared to handle its effects. Once you get the Cloning Vats be prepared to have an effective drone management policy.


Mead

	21-08-2003 10:43									#25
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I wonder why so many people complain about having a pop boom, whether via the Cloning Vats, SE settings or the mini-boom that you get by building the PTS. It's a very simple thing to deal with any of the repercussions of these sudden increases in population, and the benefits are staggering. One simple thing you can do is build crawlers and crawl in nutrients to your bases. This can turn a drone into a productive specialist (or two with a condensor farm, three with a condensor farm + a soil enricher). Doctors may not produce anything particularly useful much of the time, but they will once the base grows to size 5+, or you get Empaths. SPs, facilities, police, colony pods are all very useful for getting various drones to become workers if you'd prefer them to specialists. Even playing the University on Transcend I hardly give drones a second thought, there are so many ways to deal with them.

	21-08-2003 13:57									#26
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quote: If your new bases are not near already teraformed sites or special nutrient squares you're going to go from that 3 population to 2 population real quick.

quote: PTS is only really usefull if you have a good police rating, and some terraforming already in place for the new site, otherwise my new size three base riots and starves back to size one in two turns, so often I wish I hadn't build the darn thing :P

Who cares? Size 2 is still better than size one. Even if the base has problems you're still getting an advantage, and as far as police problems go, you get one less drone because of the PTS so any police problems with new bases is 99% likely to be due to bad playing.

Seriously, I can't believe you guys don't put more value in this SP. I can remember a game (Velociryx vs. someone, Ogie maybe, any veterans here remember?) where the entire game was won by one person getting the PTS one turn before the other. The thread might still be in the multiplayer forum if you wanna look. It was called the Ultimate Builder Challenge I think.

	21-08-2003 20:41									#27
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Mike, I agree that this SP when used properly can be very effective, I guess I haven't been using it too effectively. As I said in my evaluation, once I'm busy getting my SP crunch, my expansion rush is mostly complete. I'll typically only be able to found 2-4 more bases before hitting the bureaucracy cap, since I want to preserve my ability to GA/Pop Boom. Playing Dee, Aki, Yang or Sven, this gets much more effective, and PTS and HGP are a great combination for Lal.

	22-08-2003 00:11									#28
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This SP actually hinders my expansion because instead of having a size one base productive from the go, I have a size three base, that starves (1 turn wasted production) and then riots (2nd turn wasted production) then often starves and riots again (3rd turn wasted production) so I get my size one base, but 3 turns later. Or I could rush build police and rec commons and pre-terraform the site, but this is very expensive and former-time consuming. Better is if the base builds its own police, commons and formers as it needs them. Really, at this point in the game I'm not swimming in cash or formers yet, that won't happen for another 40-50 turns, and at this point there's so many other SPs to build. Let the AI have it and its problems, because they DEFINITELY can't cope with it. It kills Morgan for example

-Jam

	22-08-2003 01:54									#29
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quote: Originally posted by BustaMike Who cares? Size 2 is still better than size one. Even if the base has problems you're still getting an advantage, and as far as police problems go, you get one less drone because of the PTS so any police problems with new bases is 99% likely to be due to bad playing. Seriously, I can't believe you guys don't put more value in this SP. I can remember a game (Velociryx vs. someone, Ogie maybe, any veterans here remember?) where the entire game was won by one person getting the PTS one turn before the other. The thread might still be in the multiplayer forum if you wanna look. It was called the Ultimate Builder Challenge I think.

Vel vs. Zso. Zso kicked Vel's butt IIRC. I bow to the gaming Demon named Zso.

Vel was Zak IIRC and Zso was Dee IIRC.

And I echo all comments made on ability to grow in pop size by whatever means.

	22-08-2003 01:57									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Jamski This SP actually hinders my expansion because instead of having a size one base productive from the go, I have a size three base, that starves (1 turn wasted production) and then riots (2nd turn wasted production) then often starves and riots again (3rd turn wasted production) so I get my size one base, but 3 turns later. Or I could rush build police and rec commons and pre-terraform the site, but this is very expensive and former-time consuming. Better is if the base builds its own police, commons and formers as it needs them. Really, at this point in the game I'm not swimming in cash or formers yet, that won't happen for another 40-50 turns, and at this point there's so many other SPs to build. Let the AI have it and its problems, because they DEFINITELY can't cope with it. It kills Morgan for example -Jam

PTS needs to be prepared for. Dee kills with it because worst comes to worst she eats fungus. All others need a little infrastructure (either rec commons, HGP) a +2 nut square and/or recycle tanks. As such PTS is usually one of my last SP builds prefering usually HGP, WP, and PEG.