19-08-2003 01:38									#1
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As I am unhappy with the way things are going with the RolePlay team and the direction that our current leader Togas has taken us, I am asking for a change in leadership. Togas has done a good job for the most part, but I feel he has not given the team what it wants during the last few weeks during our war. This is not personal, but rather a difference in philosophies in game play.

Seperately. he has been RolePlay's leader from the begining; perhaps that is enough to request for another to take the reigns. In the ISDG we have discussed, at length, the term lengths that leaders should have. If any of what applies there should apply here, then it is indeed time for Togas to step down or be replaced.

I'm posting a poll to find out if the team wants a new leader or not. If so, we can then have an election of sorts afterward with any others who may be nominated for the position.

I already have someone in mind; I nominate Aidun to be our next leader.

	19-08-2003 02:16									#2
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	19-08-2003 02:59									#4
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Could you please explain why you would not vote either way?

	19-08-2003 03:07									#5
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Me? Thank you very well for showing your trust in me.

This is the least I ever hoped that would happen but also one of my dreams.

I can't believe it, but I will take the task on me, if the lords want me to do this. It is a great honour and I will do my best to fulfil this heaviest office of all offices in our kingdom. I can't but do without the help of you, the lords. Help in any way, advise, ambassadorship and fun.

Together we can be strong. Strong in mind and physically strong. Together as a team we can win where others fail and so we should do.

We will show our enemy that we can NEVER BE BROKEN! NEVER! They can burn our cities and attempt to kill us, but to break us will be impossible. We are Spain and together we remain standing!

Thank you.

Aidun

Last edited by Aidun on 19-08-2003 at 03:14

	19-08-2003 04:07									#6
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Ah, yes. A true challanger?

A fight between the Lord Chamberlain and the King, for ultimate control of Spain.

I don't have much to say, nor need to. I have had the very difficult job of guiding Spain through many many glorious years. The Togas family is tied by blood and our great history to the throne of Spain, and now, in our darkest hour, when the leaders grow fearful, angry, frustrated, and bitter, now is NOT THE TIME to step away from our traditions and our unity to prop up a new leader.

I have a great deal of respect for Aidun, and I hope that he will do what is best for Spain right NOW, setting aside his personal goals and ambitions to stand down and decline what is not BigFree's to offer.

Besides, I will not step down. If you want to be King of Spain, whether you be Spainish, Chinese, or Arab, you are going to have to kill me.

--Togas

	19-08-2003 04:15									#7
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I really apreciate Aidun and think that he would do a very good job as a leader, as the wise words at his post show. But among all the moments in which the change could be discussed it is one of the worst. We are facing the chance of total disaparation. Our enemies are doing a good job destroying us, we'd better not help them. I know that I am not helping much, but I don't disturb either. For that reason I will not support the extra destabilization that a change of command would suppose. Even more, I am completely against it. And in case someone has doubts, I want to make clear that this is not a post against Aidun, this is a post against creating extra problems for the team.

On the other hand I don't understand why you want to remove Togas from command, because he has always listened to you, maybe even too much, and even at some crazy ideas.

	19-08-2003 04:25									#8
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Aidun would be a very wise ruler. However, as an old saying from my homeland goes, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." In this case, Spain is not broke. Togas's supreme reign has only done good for it. Thus, why should one risk breaking something in the middle of fixing it when it were not having problems to begin with?

	19-08-2003 04:27									#9
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I'll vote for whomever promises not to do anything amazingly rash like throw half our army away because they're itching for a fight.

This is no time for rash actions.

	19-08-2003 04:37									#10
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This Poll will determine if there is enough popular support for a revolt. If this poll succeeds by saying "Yes", Togas will be killed and the nation will have to choose a new King.

If this poll ends in "No", Togas remains as King and will RP accordingly.

If this poll ends in "No", but is very very close Togas will die, killed by those Lords who have rebelled against him, but his Son will assume the throne and reclaim and restabilize the Kingdom.

--Togas

	19-08-2003 04:47									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Togas If this poll ends in "No", but is very very close Togas will die, killed by those Lords who have rebelled against him, but his Son will assume the throne and reclaim and restabilize the Kingdom.

How young is this son? Would he be of sufficient age to run the kingdom or would some time be needed before he comes of age?

Given that we are at war and this is a Monarchy, this is a legitimate concern.

	19-08-2003 05:01									#12
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When Roly Fernandez learned about the voices raised against the king, he left his place at the front and hurried back to Pamplona. He didn't wanted to tell anyone about his placement at the front, because he was just another spaniard defending the kingdom, the republic and the king, and didn't wanted to be treated in a special way just because the power and position that his family had had in the past. But now things were different. The kingdom had another problem, but this time the enemy came from the interior.

If the rebels succeed and the government is completely overthrown, who will guide the Spanish defenders against the enemy? Who will coordinate with the Egyptians for their valuous help? Is the few chances of the survival of Spain what it's being menaced here. Roly went back to Pamplona, to his father's office. He started to send messengers to old friends of his father, and old friends of the family. He wanted to convince them that the better for the kingdom was to stop the rebels as soon as posible, so the fight against the infidel invasors could continue. He ordered the family personal guards to patrol de capital trying to fight against the civil disorder. As soon as the order was restored he would go back to the front, if he was still alive by that moment...

	19-08-2003 05:08									#13
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The Clemente Household has officially decided to side with the King in this matter. The sons of the household present with the army have directed their troops to continue flying the royal banner and to help defend the King from the rebels.

	19-08-2003 05:19									#14
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“Another two traditions forgotten,” muttered Ignacio Pikesfan. “We’ve only been ruled by the Togas family for what, 2000 years? And piety is well enough, but doesn’t the King realize that the purpose of royal princesses is to marry them off to the nobles of the realm? If Seńor BigFree were married to a princess, he would be so pleased to be part of the Royal Family that he would not think of rebelling. The traditional rule is, the Church only needs one princess.”

	19-08-2003 05:59									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Arnelos How young is this son? Would he be of sufficient age to run the kingdom or would some time be needed before he comes of age?

OOC: I'm trying to find the thread where I last posted the names of the family. If was early, before the war, in a thread that talked about where everyone's family was and what they were doing.

4 children:
2 sons, 2 daughters. However, since that time they all would have aged to responsible age.

--Togas

	19-08-2003 06:07									#16
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OK, Aidun, I trust you a lot, and I know you“d be a real @ss kicking king, but we must show unity, IMHO, or they will have the chance to do those terrible jokes about us, kind of ““RP team is falling apart! hahahaha[insert silly mexican laughter in here];so I hereby accept Togas as the ruler, and king, et all. But I must state that I am unhappy with the military actions of us, and I must add that next turnchat there will be one boring Brazilian screaming ““For God“s sake, do it the other way, you fools!““ in the best republican tradition .
But we do need some internal strugle, to fuel our roleplayings, maybe someone challenging lord chamberlain“s post, or arnelos ““Royal manipulator““ post, or BF“s position, or Dejon“s one. Jeesh, as for me, gimme roleplay or gimme death!!!!

Ah, and yes, when the war is over and there is no longer sense for monarchy, there will be many disgruntled citizens wanting their rights back
Nuke

PS:. Man, it is because of things like this that I love this team !!!

	19-08-2003 06:19									#17
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Just for the record, the Dejon family vote was the first NO vote on this poll, and it is a resounding NO at that.

Togas and our diplomats created and raised the bar for diplomacy in PtW DG's. Perhaps if we had some pureblood warmongers amongst our members things might be turning out differently, but speculation won't get us anywhere, and I wouldn't trade this experience for anything anyway. Changing leadership now would be akin to denying what Spain was and is.

Btw, I'm now back at my place (from house-sitting). My internet connectivity was a little spotty earlier today but seems okay for now.

	19-08-2003 18:57									#18
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Unity in the kingdom will not be a probem, I would install a new government s soon as possible. In the meanwhile old orders as well as old agreements and treaties remain unchanged.

Lord Libre and I protest but against the strange position that Lord Clemente has accuired and the fact that King Togas grants power to only few that he likes to give power, namely lord Dejon and Lord Clemente. Even I during the republic by you elected as Lord Chamberlain did not get any power from King Togas, although he was supposed to give me power.
Lord Winterius worded the position of Lord Clemente very good: "royal manipulator". What right did he have to achieve so much power? What mandate did the House of Lords gove this man? None.
Why is power only granted to a small elite in our kingdom, why has the King so much power?

I protest and revolt against this misuse of power by the King and Lord Clemente and you should do that too. You should have asked the king, if you would have had the courage, but you are afraid, afraid to wield a sword and afraid to be hurted by the King. Come on, my fellow Lords, show that you are worth to bear the title of Lord and protest instead of kissing the Kings toes!

Duke Aidun Cian of Zaragoza.

	19-08-2003 19:53									#19
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This poll will remain open until the time we play the save, which will be in about 12 hours. If the dissidents do not have enough votes by then, I will install the old Monarchy under the traditional control of the Togas family.

As for Arnelos and Dejon ... They have done more than any other Spaniard to help this nation during this dark time. Dejon has done what he can to preserve our army and fight the enemy and kill the enemy where we have had opportunities. Arnelos is the architect and single person most responsible for getting Gathering Storm to aid us in this war.

Protesting against these two loyal and faithful men is folly. What has Lord Cian done other than lust after the throne? He has not fought against a single invader nor brought ANY sort of help to the people of Spain.

--Togas

	19-08-2003 20:05									#20
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Lords of Spain,

There are times where the nobles have to stand up; faith and loyalty is due to Spain, and only as a consequence of it, we used to dedicate them to the King.

Spain has been lead to its current status by only one royal family. Those who describe the accomplishments of Togas as admirable enough to keep him in power are just playing with words. The situation is catastrophic and the responsibility is entirely on his shoulders.

The argument not to change the leader during a crisis is the best way not to overcome that crisis. We need new blood, new thoughs, new will.

Do not refuse the change because it would displease Togas; he knows well that people are ungrateful. The problem to-day is not to please, it is for Spain to seize the last opportunity to reverse the trend of History.

Tomas de Torquemada.

	19-08-2003 21:34									#21
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I didn“t refuse change because it“d displease Togas, and I am offended that Davout can sugest me and other spanish lords could do this. I think we may be at the need of a refreshing in the kingdom, a cleansing of some failures that have been hapening, but I disagree with a brutal change. I also think that even though Arnelos and dejon hold more power than most, it is because tehy have been accomplishing their duties. I can disagree on many of their decisions, but I can“t in my sane mind dare to say they were negligent or lazy in their duties. And indeed Togas has always been open to sugestions, wich is something great. Indeed, many sugestions of my and of others were not followed, and that is why we call this a republic (ok, we used to call it a republic); people give sugestions, the persons assigned to those duties weight them and take their decisions, based on their opinions.

I myself see that the problem is that with this war , and all land lords moving to the capitol, there are too many nobles for too small land, and these fightings over power are nothing more than a consequence of this (and of the tense situation inside the walls of this great city that Pamplona is.
Acalm your minds and lets get back to business.

	19-08-2003 22:54									#22
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Seńores Fernandez and Nuclearis Winterius, your words are wise.

Accordingly, I've changed my mind and voted NO to this poll.

However, I think that the Lords Libre, Aidun and Davout are faithful and honest and corageus and would the best for Spain. Therefore, I suggest to our King to best integrate those Lords in the State's affairs and to reinforce the military side in order to do the best decisions. I suggest to our General to present a military plan for the next days to all the lords instead of giving orders in a hurry (OOC : an orders in a strategical thread instead of quick decisions taken in the next chat. The next turns will be critical and we should vote the main orders first).

Astronicus, Duke of Barcelona

	19-08-2003 22:55									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Nuclear Winter I didn“t refuse change because it“d displease Togas, and I am offended that Davout can sugest me and other spanish lords could do this.

OOC

You have possibly been offended by Tomas de Torquemada (you certainly remember that he has already been in great trouble for some revolutionary speech), but not by Davout. In fact, I see no reason to express an opinion OOC on this subject.

/OOC

	19-08-2003 23:43									#24
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OOC
Yes, I know that is why I used ““spanish lords““ et all. The Interim Pope Nuclecźncium the I would be very offended by that, but I myself am as cool as ice , In fact this situation is great for roleplay, and I like it a lot!

	19-08-2003 23:44									#25
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I do not protest against the efforts of the most respectable Lords Dejon and Clemente, I protest against the way they gained their power.

Lord Dejon was appointed as General and that is totally legitimate, but the King seems to hear only military advises of him. Ofcourse do some advises of some Lords contradict, and finally the King has to make a decision, but more openness about this decisionmaking would be nice. However, that does not happen.

Lord Clemente's position is somewhat strange. His family suddenly came back in difficult times, something that I greatly appreciate and something for wich I am thankful. But in the new republic he could soon be seen to never leave from the Kings side. Again I ask: how did Lord Clemente gain his power. I believe that this was the old-by network.

Now tell me Lords, why should we allow the old-boy network and corruption in our kingdom?

And to you, your majesty, I ask you to forgive me when I was the 11 year old son of a recently died Lord, for not participating in the fight. If Lord Dejon would have explained that the army was so weak that even the children of Lords had to fight, I wouldn't have hesitated for a moment, but have grabbed for my sword.
As Lord Chamberlain I have tried to do what I can, but alas, the King preferred the service of Lord Clemente over mine.

Again I ask you my fellow Lords, prove that you are worth to bear the title of Lord. Let us make an end to this old-boys network and corruption.

Vote or change your vote now, it is still not too late

Lord Aidun Cian

Last edited by Aidun on 19-08-2003 at 23:57

	20-08-2003 00:54									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Aidun Lord Clemente's position is somewhat strange. His family suddenly came back in difficult times, something that I greatly appreciate and something for wich I am thankful. But in the new republic he could soon be seen to never leave from the Kings side. Again I ask: how did Lord Clemente gain his power. I believe that this was the old-by network.

Lord Clemente was appointed by the King to manage the very difficult task of organizing and directing our cooperation with Gathering Storm, and he has succeeded greatly in bringing their formidable power to our aid.

How dare you even question this! It is entirely in my power to direct Foriegn Affairs. It is my job to appoint Ministers and Ambassadors. The matter was too difficult for Senor Libre to handle, it required the dedictaion and patience and commitment that only Senor Clemente could provite. His efforts have given us the only real hope we have and may well save our nation. He is a hero in my eyes.

How dare you bring such absurd and petty complains against him! How can you question this man's devotion and contributions to our nation in our time of need? What has Lord Cian OR Lord Libre done to save Spain? Neither of you has killed a single Moorish or Chinese invader. Neither of you have brought us allies or even brought contributions of Gold to Spain to aid in our defense!

If you want to make a case for your seizing power, you'd be wise to direct your criticism against me. I'm sure you could make an argument for my removal, but trying to smear the name of Lord Clemente is, frankly, not possible. The man's honor and stature far outweighs your own.

--Togas

	20-08-2003 01:08									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Togas Arnelos is the architect and single person most responsible for getting Gathering Storm to aid us in this war. --Togas

Uh, I thought I had a hand in this action as well?

It's nice of you to give credit to Arnelos and dejon, but there have been other that have help out in this game as well. Though I have not posted every chat (upon request of nye) I have been very involved in getting GS to side with us from the begining.



Shame on those that are afraid of what our image will be if we change leadership. I'm more afraid of what IS happening to Spain than our game play image...

	20-08-2003 02:00									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Togas How dare you even question this! It is entirely in my power to direct Foriegn Affairs. It is my job to appoint Ministers and Ambassadors. The matter was too difficult for Senor Libre to handle, it required the dedictaion and patience and commitment that only Senor Clemente could provite. His efforts have given us the only real hope we have and may well save our nation. He is a hero in my eyes.

You haven't heard me saying that he did not do his job well, honestly, I would like to rewatd him for doing such an excellent job, if I had the power to do that.

Yes, You have the power to appoint ministers that is true. But I also see that it are always the same that get the nice jobs there is a kind of elite in all of the demogames. Others that have great ideas don't get the chance to change these into policy. That elite is called the old-boys network and it has to be over now.

quote: How dare you bring such absurd and petty complains against him! How can you question this man's devotion and contributions to our nation in our time of need? What has Lord Cian OR Lord Libre done to save Spain? Neither of you has killed a single Moorish or Chinese invader. Neither of you have brought us allies or even brought contributions of Gold to Spain to aid in our defense!

I will only repeat it one more time, your majesty:

And to you, your majesty, I ask you to forgive me when I was the 11 year old son of a recently died Lord, for not participating in the fight. If Lord Dejon would have explained that the army was so weak that even the children of Lords had to fight, I wouldn't have hesitated for a moment, but have grabbed for my sword.
As Lord Chamberlain I have tried to do what I can, but alas, the King preferred the service of Lord Clemente over mine.

quote: If you want to make a case for your seizing power, you'd be wise to direct your criticism against me.

If you listen carefully, you can hear that I only direct my criticism against you.

quote: ... but trying to smear the name of Lord Clemente is, frankly, not possible.

I do not smear the name of Lord Clemente, you should listen more carefully majesty. You are creating the elite in Spain. You are responsible for that, not good Loed Clemente. He profits from it, that is all, but it is you who are putting your friends in powerful positions.

quote: The man's honor and stature far outweighs your own.

Lords, now you hear the real mind of your King. He dislikes the Lord Chamberlain and uses this as an argument to give his friend in government more power.

STOP THIS CORRUPTION NOW!


If you do not vote against the King, I hold you all responsible for turning Spain into a corrupt paradise where power is not dependent on idividual qualities but solely on the good relation with the King!

Lord Aidun Cian, Duke of Zaragoza

	20-08-2003 02:18									#29
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I have no criticisms of Arnelos; I may not agree with his advice at times, but he is free to give it as he wishes. Arnelos is a most appreciated member of this team and if doesn't know it, I respect him highly. I only criticized Togas's advice taking abilities/dispostition. He only takes advice from a few certain people. Aidun was elected, fairly, as second in command, yet he has nearly no voice in RP matters that are apparent to me.

Decisions have to be made in this game, advice or no, I do not like some of the decisions made by Togas, so I called for a change. The matter of whether or not Togas follows advice from second in command is another matter.

My largets criticism of Togas is the way he has handled our troops in war time. We now stand with more troops than we can support. If GS, had forgeten, again, to gift us gold, we would have lost troops/stayed in anarchy. I'm not syaing we should always attack, in fact I'm not going to make this a post about a single turn of strategy. It's just that we have not set ourselves up to do any counters against either invader. Togas said that the defenses were strong in Salmanca due to hills and walls there; yet if we knew that why did he not station more troops there to defend it. Walls and hills do nothing for you if you have little to no troops there. The mistake was,(not not attacking Salmanca, but garrisoning troops there to defend it. Togas has miscalculated the strngth of ND/GoW forces and has overprotected Pamplona while leaving the rest of our cities open to free attacks. Will we survive with only a few cities? We will be able to compete? To me, it would have been better to try to defend more of Spain than to let ND/GoW have it with nary a fight. This is the kind of thing that got me rilled up.

	20-08-2003 03:05									#30
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I will support anyone who will fight to the bitter end. No peace ever and no pitiful, desperate attempts to buy an ignoble existence somewhere between life and death.