19-08-2003 04:40									#1
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quote: Jamie Nelson spent three years in prison for a crime he did not commit. Following his arrest in April, 1996, the life of the now 34-year-old man was reduced to tatters. His youngest son was put up for adoption, he lost his business and, in despair, attempted suicide inside his jail cell. This week, the Ontario Court of Appeal acquitted Mr. Nelson of rape, assault, forcible confinement and uttering death threats. Amazingly, he was convicted based on nothing more than the word of Cathie Fordham, his accuser. No physical evidence supported her story. Nor did any witnesses confirm it. Rather, as National Post columnist Christie Blatchford has reported: "This was a classic he said-she said case. The tie went to the woman, as so often it does."

LINK

One has to wonder how many more men are in jail today, wrongly... 60% could it be that high a number. If so the system has to change the way it views men as evil and women as victims...

Even if it is not that high the social engineered stereotyping has to change.

	19-08-2003 04:42									#2
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60% ? I don't know about that, but certainly there are many who are wrongly accused.

	19-08-2003 04:47									#3
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"how many more men are in jail today, wrongly... 60% could it be that high a number."

No it couldn't.

	19-08-2003 04:49									#4
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Yo man, you're absolutely right, but even if you count out all those wrongfully convicted men, you'll still have waaay too much people in your prisons...

I've seen reports and documentaries on tv in which I was explained the 3 strike rule (that's what I think it was called).. If you do something wrong 3 times, you could go to jail for like 25 years or more; quite absurd really!


I have heard the situation in Canada is slightly better than in the US though.. People ought to take Finland's example for their prison policy; instead of a primitive harsh system based on nothing more than revenge, what has to be one of the most filthiest, weakest things in life

	19-08-2003 04:50									#5
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quote: Originally posted by blackice 60% could it be that high a number.

No.

I imagine there are some in prison wrongfully, but to say that 60% of convicted rapists are innocent is a bit high. But are you saying that 60% when there is no evidence of rape, nothing outside the words of the two parties? Still a bit too high. If I were a prosecutor, I would try desperately to come up with something of evidential value.

	19-08-2003 04:50									#6
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women are the one's that are evil.

A comedian once said that men lie the most- but they are small lies- like I was at my friends house when they weren't.

But women life less often, but the lies are the biggest. Like lying about a man being the father of their baby.

Or in this case about being raped. I don't know how they can live with themselves ruining people's lives like that.

Although you could make the argument that men deserve it because of the way they treat women.

	19-08-2003 04:51									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Trajanus Yo man, you're absolutely right, but even if you count out all those wrongfully convicted men, you'll still have waaay too much people in your prisons... I've seen reports and documentaries on tv in which I was explained the 3 strike rule (that's what I think it was called).. If you do something wrong 3 times, you could go to jail for like 25 years or more; quite absurd really! I have heard the situation in Canada is slightly better than in the US though.. People ought to take Finland's example for their prison policy; instead of a primitive harsh system based on nothing more than revenge, what has to be one of the most filthiest, weakest things in life

why is that absurd? How do you think the U.S. crime rate has gotten as low as it has? Because everyone is in jail! These people never reform, they keep committing crimes over and over. I support the 3 strikes rule for violent crime (non drug related)

	19-08-2003 05:01									#8
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quote: why is that absurd? How do you think the U.S. crime rate has gotten as low as it has? Because everyone is in jail! These people never reform, they keep committing crimes over and over. I support the 3 strikes rule for violent crime (non drug related)

Maybe you aren't aware that around 2 million Americans are actually in jail; that's mind bogglingly high
Last thing I heard was that America had about 2 million military personnel? (I coul dbe wrong though but if it's true, you guys have as much military as you got prisoners )


The thing is that there is no indication whatsoever that dealing with crime in a harsh way decreases crime levels; That's what criminologists or people who study this problem all over the world think, I'm not making this up.. On the contrary it's possible that crime could go worse...


Imagine you going to jail because you used some drugs, having fun with your friends etc... Jail is not a pretty place to be and if you get out, you'll be more likely to be a crook because of the mentality of the real badass criminals that are kept in those prisons.. A harsh prison doesn't help your view on society, on the contrary, you'll have a worse picture of how society runs... you don't know how to take care of yourself in real life you know what I'm saying? they don't know what it means to have a normal life..

What are you gonna do with those people who are freed after 25 years... they won't know how to behave, how to take care of themselves etc you expect them to just roll in society like normal people after being so long in prison??

	19-08-2003 05:05									#9
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People are in prison because they broke the law. They belong there (except for the drug offenders- we need to cancel the war on drugs imho)

We have a higher % than other countries because our country is a beacon for criminals and criminal behaviour. It is glamourized in every single movie made and most tv shows.

and harsh punishment may not decrease the need to commit crimes. But if the guy is in jail, he cannot commit other crimes against people

What do do after 25 years? Well it was my belief the 3 strikes law puts them away for life. You don't let repeat violent criminals out and they won't commit more crimes. It's just that easy.

	19-08-2003 05:08									#10
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But the US crime rate is still very high compared to other nations. Why? Because a load of the ppo in the big house are there for doing drugs. Legalize it, and you'll have an instant plunge in the crime rate nationwide. You also won't have all the drug-related violent crime, such as drug dealer turf wars, people robbing people so they can buy drugs, people like Albert Speer getting jumped for weed, etc.

About the "his word vs. her word" stuff... If a rape happens there is physical evidence. Problem is, that often the evidence is destroyed by the victim before the authorities are contacted. There needs be more education on this matter.

Third note, What is the punishment for falsifying such a charge?

	19-08-2003 05:11									#11
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well I support legalizationk, but I'm not in charge of making the laws for some reason. I'd legalize regulated prostitution as well in other states.

But others do not see my wisdom

	19-08-2003 05:23									#12
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asleepathewheel,monolith94 [no]

Are you sure? How do we know? DNA FBI files show one out of four are false.

http://www.ncjrs.org/txtfiles/dnaevid.txt

On top of that DNA testing labs do not always get it right.

http://www.law-forensic.com/cfr_crime_labs.htm

quote: Eugene Kanin is a professor of sociology at Purdue University. Kanin tracked all allegations of rapes reported to the police over a 9-year period in one Midwestern town. In 41% of the cases, the woman later admitted that the rape allegation was false.

http://www.anandaanswers.com/pages/naaFalse.html

Some of these studies are old and some new laws especially on the domestic side may have pushed these numbers up by quite a bit.

I think it could be as high as 60% or close to that number especially with laws such as "Shout at your spouse and lose your house" as we have here and similar in ones in the US.
So much to gain so little to lose. I mean the lady gets house arrest for ruining someone life? Others get the house the kids, no I think it could be as high as 60%

quote: Although you could make the argument that men deserve it because of the way they treat women.

I would have to say you are on your own with this statement. I for one treat women like people and with the same respect as anyone else.

	19-08-2003 05:23									#13
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you're pretty strange; you're for the 3 strike law but you wan't to legalize prostituion and drugs as well!! frikking weird

you're right that if the guy is in jail that he cannot commit other crimes; but at the same time, a prisoner costs about $50 000 a year to keep him fed, washed, and guarded.. Think of what you can do with all that money...

Also those people that are in jail now, could be helpful otherwise... if you can educate him and get the guy on his feet again, he might be able to get back in the 'system' which is better economically

the biggest problem is mentality; there are some hard cases that are really hardcore, but most of them are no real criminals; they just did foolish things in their youth because they had little opportunities and they got involved with the few hardcore criminals; all there is to it is trying to change the mentality, which isn't easy of course, but it takes time to see the results; that's what you don't see, it takes time, you guys always want to live for the next quarter (all that matters for a company is will the company get good results in the next quarter)... that's a bad attitude imo

	19-08-2003 05:26									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Trajanus Yo man, you're absolutely right, but even if you count out all those wrongfully convicted men, you'll still have waaay too much people in your prisons... I've seen reports and documentaries on tv in which I was explained the 3 strike rule (that's what I think it was called).. If you do something wrong 3 times, you could go to jail for like 25 years or more; quite absurd really! I have heard the situation in Canada is slightly better than in the US though.. People ought to take Finland's example for their prison policy; instead of a primitive harsh system based on nothing more than revenge, what has to be one of the most filthiest, weakest things in life

I fully support locking career criminals away. our biggest problem is not enuff prisons. not too many prisoners. we foster more crime when we keep having to let repeat offenders back out. if ur a habitual criminal my sympathy left a long time ago.

	19-08-2003 05:26									#15
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quote: Rather, as National Post columnist Christie Blatchford has reported: "This was a classic he said-she said case. The tie went to the woman, as so often it does."

The sad thing is the she-b!tch, man hating, femi-nazis have moved to make all cases where a woman accusses a man without evidience to automatically mean the man must prove he is innocent.

	19-08-2003 05:33									#16
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Guilty until proven innocent is contrary to US ideals. They're going to regret they did that someday though, as any time one side extends too far there's generally a backlash from the other side.

Though I have to say that the US system is still better than, say, the Iranian system where the victim is punsihed worse than the offender.

There's got to be some nation that's found the happy medium. Where is it and what do they do?

	19-08-2003 05:35									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Smiley Guilty until proven innocent is contrary to US ideals. They're going to regret they did that someday though, as any time one side extends too far there's generally a backlash from the other side. Though I have to say that the US system is still better than, say, the Iranian system where the victim is punsihed worse than the offender. There's got to be some nation that's found the happy medium. Where is it and what do they do?

there is no happy medium. there is two things, which side u err on and how accurate ur system is.

do u lockup the innocent or let teh guilty go? and how often do u do either.

	19-08-2003 05:37									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Trajanus you're pretty strange; you're for the 3 strike law but you wan't to legalize prostituion and drugs as well!! frikking weird

yep, that's me . That's why I'm neither a conservative nor a liberal. I consider myself a moderate. I lean one way on some issues, and the other way on other issues.

As for supporting the 3 strikes law- well 3 might be a little too harsh. But it coincides with out national pastime of baseball . And I don't support all the crimes encompassed by the 3 strikes law. Even violent crimes like assault aren't that bad and probably shouldn't be included. All drug laws of course shouldn't be included. But when you are talking about rape, murder, attempted murder, child abuse of any kind. Then yes these people should be locked away. You could say many of these people get life sentences anyways. You'd be suprised how many get out and commit more crimes.

	19-08-2003 05:44									#19
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They say the price of freedom is eternal vigilance.

Locking up the innocent is very unamerican. Letting the guilty loose is excusable.

	19-08-2003 05:47									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Smiley But the US crime rate is still very high compared to other nations. Why? Because a load of the ppo in the big house are there for doing drugs.

The only druggies doing hard time are the dealers. Your average user spends almost no time in jail when caught unless there are extenuating circumstances like being out on parole or weapons violations.

NPR had a great documentary about this two months back after a 10 year nation wide study showed that there are very few drug users in the Federal Pen due just to drug use. The states jails may have different satistics but it's a lie that jails are over run with poor innocent first time drug offenders.

	19-08-2003 06:07									#21
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yes, but dealing drugs isn't that bad. They shouldn't be in prison. Now if they committed some violent crimes while dealing, that's different.

	19-08-2003 06:25									#22
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The really interesting question is how blacks can make up 11% of the total population yet there are as many black in jail as there are whites in jail. Seriously there are about 1.9 million whites and 1.9 million blacks in US prisions (and about 1 million hispanics). This is despite the fact that whites out number blacks like 7 or 8 to 1.

American Black culture is seriously ****ed up.

	19-08-2003 06:34									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin American Black culture is seriously ****ed up.

Maybe the Lily White Court system and Police Departments are what's screwed up

Justice can be bought... and the poor can't afford it.

	19-08-2003 06:57									#24
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I'll agree that seriously rich people can afford the super lawyers to get them off and it doesn't matter if it's a rich black or a rich white. Being rich is the key to walking free. Still 99%, in my humble guess-stimate, of the cases are not dealing with super rich people. Most of them are every day joes who get a decent attorny and who face the system.

In such circumstances it would seem the controlling factor is that certain groups have a higher propensity towards commiting crime. Why would one group commit more crimes? Well, socio-economic status is one factor (poor people commit more crime on average) and blacks certainly are disproportionately poor, but, the majority of the blame seems to land on culture.

How can I make such a claim? Simple. Hispanics are now the largest minority group in the US and they, like blacks, are on averge less educated and poorer then whites yet hispanics go to jail at nearly half the rate of blacks. It seems that by comparing blacks & hispanics we have controlled the socio-economic factor and the single largest outstanding difference is one of culture.

	19-08-2003 07:15									#25
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About 70% of people in prison for drug use are serving time simultaneously for other felonies as well.

	19-08-2003 07:23									#26
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Crying wolf

quote: Det. Leaver fears for smaller Canadian forces, where police may have been thoroughly inculcated in the school of woman-as-victim, but less well-trained in investigative basics: "That is putting people at risk," she said.

quote: Ironically, it is the notorious case of Paul Bernardo and Karla Homolka which may provide the bookends to this treacherous territory. As the rapist who eluded police by moving from Toronto to St. Catharines, Ont., where he married Homolka and launched his career as a killer, Bernardo provided the tragic rationale for Ontario legislating VICLAS. His former wife, on the other hand, was arguably the ultimate illustration of the way women came to be seen in the justice system. After Bernardo's 1994 trial at which she testified at length, with her husband convicted of murdering teenagers Kristen French and Leslie Mahaffy, several jurors wrote letters to Homolka's family, expressing their sympathy for the woman who cheerfully had handed over their youngest daughter, her sister Tammy, to Bernardo, then just Homolka's boyfriend, for drugging and raping one Christmas. Tammy choked on her own vomit and died during the pair's attack. It was clear Ontario prosecutors had achieved the improbable and managed to turn Homolka into a victim, albeit a repellent one. There were all sorts of reasons for that portrayal -- chiefly, that it served to justify the plea bargain the government had reluctantly made with her -- but the message was nonetheless stark. If Homolka was a victim; if the Crown could argue she was telling the truth in court; if psychiatrists could testify this was a battered spouse of a sexual sadist, any woman -- all women -- must be surely viewed through the same distorting prism.

For the "no" sayers are you absolutely sure?

	19-08-2003 07:24									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident yep, that's me . That's why I'm neither a conservative nor a liberal. I consider myself a moderate. I lean one way on some issues, and the other way on other issues.

Actually, that would make you a "swinger". Moderates stay in the middle ground ALL the time.

	19-08-2003 07:42									#28
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"DNA FBI files show one out of four are false."

One out of four is 25%, not 60%.

	19-08-2003 08:15									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Ming Maybe the Lily White Court system and Police Departments are what's screwed up Justice can be bought... and the poor can't afford it.

Alright, let's assume for the sake of argument that half of the black prison population is there unjustly. This still makes them 4 times more likely to be there. This ratio mirrors the ratio in murder rates btw. So racism aside, there's a problem with the culture of some African-Americans to the extent that they are willing to murder one another so easily, just as there are white areas where there are bad stats and a problem with an overly violent culture as well.

	19-08-2003 23:14									#30
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This may not be politically correct.

But I think a lot (read: not all) of blacks have a chip on their shoulder for the crappy way they and their ancestors were treated in the U.S. for hundreds of years. This combined with poverty is a dangerous combination. And then combine this with a gangster culture and you can explain the higher than normal crime rates among blacks.