19-08-2003 07:15									#31
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Think we'll ever get to the point where computers and robots can do everything? Including fix themselves?

	19-08-2003 07:18									#32
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Eventually.

	19-08-2003 07:38									#33
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In fact, this overseas job relocation promotes further segregation of the American society: the tendency is that there remain unskilled jobs and highly skilled jobs (which can't be relocated), whereas the middle ground is gradually washed away.

	19-08-2003 08:01									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin You are seriously claiming that Unions not having a natural right to exclude any and all persons who don't pay them membership dues is what is distorting the market?

Yes it is. See below. Moreover, just as jobs typically require work to keep them, union membership requires dues. Go figure. Are you saying employers don't have a right to exclude those who aren't doing their jobs?

quote: So by allowing unions to exclude all of there competetion we are creating a better market? Monoplies create perfect markets?

What we are talking about is the freedom of individuals to contract - with companies and with each other. Are you saying people should not be able to contract with each other for the purpose of bargaining collectively?

What if we thought of a union as a group of individuals who contract to only negotiate with employers together? Are you saying individuals should not be able to make such contracts? A business can typically require in employment contracts that I exclusively work with them while employed.

The very fact that unions are so limited in what they can do distorts the market for labor. In essence, we force people to negotiate one-on-one with employers (or in severely limited and crippled unions). Legally mandated constraints on individuals so contracting distorts the power of individuals to negotiate collectively. If acting collectively individuals can increase their agreggate value, then legal prohibitions on aggregating value artificially depresses the value of labor.

quote: If you are arguing this then I don't see any reason discuing this with you because such a claim is clearly assinine.

You have an argument for this or just assuming it?

	19-08-2003 08:16									#35
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Unions: Good.

Results: Bad.

Here's what's happened: Unions helped earn US employees many of the benefits they enjoy. But benefits are a two edged sword. Yes, they're nice to have. But, since unlike salaries, the benefits an employee gets are fixed, it is in the employer's interest to maximize productivity per employee and minimize the number of employees. That is why the US has the longest work hours of any industrial nation.

Solution: There is the European socialist model, where the govt provides the benefits so that companies don't have to milk their employees dry in 50-hour workweeks. That has its flaws as well, anyone know a better plan?

	19-08-2003 08:21									#36
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Actually, employee benefits by employers were caused by socialistic measures in the first place...

It started during World War II when, because of the labor shortage, the government put a salary cap so that businesses couldn't compete for the best labor. As a result, businesses started offering benefits as ways to get around the salary cap.

There are libertarian theories that this is, in fact, the source of the health care nightmare we're in today.

	19-08-2003 08:24									#37
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I'm sure they'd think the alternative (a full coverage plan) would be even greater of a nightmare .

	19-08-2003 08:36									#38
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This is a huge benefit of open competition, not a problem. Jobs are never really "lost" per se. It's about like saying that money "leaves" the US. In economic terms, neither really works the way common sense would dictate that it works. For instance, we have been losing millions of jobs for decades, but we now have millions more good paying jobs than ever.

We've got an economist on Apolyton who works on labor issues and could give you a good explanation on how these things work. All very interesting.

Last edited by DanS on 19-08-2003 at 08:43

	19-08-2003 08:39									#39
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Yes, all this about "losing workers! losing money!".... sounds like Pat Buchanan to me...

I mean, why does a line on a map really make so much of a difference in the long run? I mean, would you still be going nuts if the jobs were moving from Cleveland to New York or something internal? It's a big world, we'll survive.

	19-08-2003 08:55									#40
	Re: Millions of jobs lost overseas- Is this a serious problem for the U.S.? Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by Dissident It seems many tech jobs are going to Russia and India, including tech support. All they have to know how to do is speak english. Is this a serious problem? Can we create more jobs to fill them? We created many jobs in the 90's that didn't exist before, can we do it again? Because I see this as a serious problem. True, not all jobs can be shipped overseas. Many jobs require "hands" on work. But even white collar jobs such as accounting is being shipped overseas. This got me concerned. Because if we reach a point where we have millions of people that can't find work, and need work to eat and live in their homes, we will have a problem. Yes we already have millions of people out of work, but they aren't starving to death...yet Is it time to go to socialism? These fat cat business owners are getting rich sending american jobs overseas. They are making millions. Is it time they support the people they put out of work?

DISS HAS SEEN THE LIGHT! Welcome Comrade.

I agree with Templar on most of the things.

	19-08-2003 08:57									#41
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quote: If the productivity of the average worker increases while the overall amount of work to be done remains the same, then you have the conditions for long-term unemployment problems.

Actually, this isn't true. The highest productivity gains most often occur during a general reduction in the number of unemployed.

Also, labor productivity gains flow through to higher wages for labor. The range of profit as %-age of our country's economy hasn't changed since the Depression. It's hard-wired into our system and sending jobs overseas for the last couple of decades hasn't changed the equation.

	19-08-2003 19:46									#42
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Well, what some Americans are concerned over is that their standard of living is going to drop in relation to the rest of the world. Currently, the standard of living in the USA is artificially higher than what would be expected for the amount of labor input. This is because so many imported products can be had cheaply. The cost of maintaining an American standard of living elsewhere in the world is prohibitively high, because of the normalized cost of manufactured goods.
The flipside, of course, is that jobs go overseas. The real irony though, is that an unemployed American on welfare still gets paid more and lives better than an employed worker in the Third World.

	19-08-2003 20:00									#43
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Being a welfare spunge is where it's at baby!

	19-08-2003 20:17									#44
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quote: Currently, the standard of living in the USA is artificially higher than what would be expected for the amount of labor input. This is because so many imported products can be had cheaply. The cost of maintaining an American standard of living elsewhere in the world is prohibitively high, because of the normalized cost of manufactured goods.

The US maintains a higher standard of living than just about everyone, including Euros, who can also avail themselves of these cheap imports. Furthermore, this standard of living is not primarily locked into manufactured goods and mostly nothing that is tangible.

Rather, we're pampered by services of various sorts. For instance, our graduate schools are slightly better than OK.

	19-08-2003 20:19									#45
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How do you know we have a higher standard of living then the Euros? Social services add up. My money is on Canada having the highest standard of living but I couldn't put up with the crap weather.

	19-08-2003 20:19									#46
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"Rather, we're pampered by services of various sorts."

I've always wondered what they are.

	19-08-2003 20:22									#47
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quote: How do you know we have a higher standard of living then the Euros?

It's not easy to see tangibly. I have been trying to figure it out ever since I first visited Europe. But you have to remember that the vast majority of our economy is service-oriented.

	19-08-2003 20:24									#48
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Yes, most jobs are service jobs but how does that equal a higher standard of living then in Europe where most jobs are also service jobs?

	19-08-2003 20:28									#49
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Well if you compare some stats, industry is about a third of EU GDP and a quarter of US GDP (that uses a broader definition than manufacturing in US stats). So we have, forgetting about agriculture:

--per capita GDP services industry
US 35000$ 26000$ 9000$
EU 25000€ 17000€ 8000€

The usual PPP conversion is about 1.1, so Americans work a couple hundred hours per year more to produce and consume 7000-8000$ extra in services. How much that contributes to standard of living is an interesting question.

	19-08-2003 20:37									#50
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What bothers me is that "cheap labor" is often nothing more than a polite euphemism for "slave labor". I think it is significant that if Big MultiNational Company treated their workers in the US the way they treat their foreign workers, they'd be hauled into court and fined. Lower costs are the usual reason for shipping jobs oversees, however I suspect it's mostly just a dodge to avoid providing decent working conditions to workers.

During the 80's I remember Americans actually being outraged by the abysmal treatment of South African blacks at the hands of their gov't and companies that employed them. Boycotts and divestitures were the result and it forced many companies to adopt the Sullivan Principles, guaranteeing an equivalent work environment for blacks and whites. Too bad we have nothing like this today.

I’ve always liked the idea of tying workers wages to CEO compensation or corporate net profit. No CEO can earn more than, say, 50 times as much as the lowest paid worker. Very uncapitalistic yes, but there’s a certain fairness to it.

	19-08-2003 20:46									#51
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Hysterical war veterans often complain that people who opposed the last war in Iraq are unpatriotic.

Why isn't it the case that corporate executives are seen as unpatriotic when they send so many jobs overseas?

	19-08-2003 20:55									#52
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler ... so Americans work a couple hundred hours per year more to produce and consume 7000-8000$ extra in services. How much that contributes to standard of living is an interesting question.

Would not you enjoy paying huge fees to lawyers for trials against your suppliers?

	19-08-2003 20:55									#53
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quote: I've always wondered what they are.

We always get our stuff in paper bags when we buy something!

	19-08-2003 21:00									#54
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"Would not you enjoy paying huge fees to lawyers for trials against your suppliers?"

That's one area. Or spending 50 billion $ on prison services.

"We always get our stuff in paper bags when we buy something!"

It would annoy the hell out of me to have some clown packing my groceries. So I perform that service myself, am happy, but GDP wise I'm poorer.

	19-08-2003 21:05									#55
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Well, we spend a little more on R&D, higher education, construction, and lawyering. A lot more on health services.

	19-08-2003 21:09									#56
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"R&D"

Yes. Although that is often an intermediate good/service.

"higher education"

No, you're just doing a lot of 2nd level education at colleges.

"construction"

Not a service, only the use of buildings.

"lawyering"

And you get an incredibly crappy deal out of it, but it's only about 1-2 % of GDP IIRC.