19-08-2003 06:42									#1
	Roman Classical attack-patch 3. Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I've been playing mostly Romans in my solo games, and was happy to see them get a buff in patch 3. With the +15 wealth I wanted to try an earlier attack which takes advantage of this. On to the strat...

Gameplan

I will attack in Classical age with a few heavy infantry, several archers, a few light and heavy cav, and 2 or more catapults. For this I need all level one techs, and Military 2 (for siege). The Roman bonus wealth allows for more archers and heavy cavalry than most nations, and allows you to delay building a market. Also you get your bonus heavy inf from barracks.

Build

I start with a normal build of Science, Civic, Commerce. Upon finishing my second city, I get my food and timber to 100 _before_ building a market (i think its more common to build a market immediately after getting commerce, and before maxing your commerce limit). With the wealth bonus, you can hold off on caravans and merchants. I might make an exception if I had diamonds. After maxing your commerce, you may choose to build a market, though the timber can be used for troops. After that you'll research Mil 1, and build a barracks.

You want to take advantage of the fact that metal is not used for pre-classical units and research. Metal will be limiting factor in this build because of the high cost of Seige Factory and Catapults. Build a few Heavy Infantry before classical...they will cost food and timber. Then research military 2 as it will cost food and timber also, rather than food and metal. On maps with lots of metal you can get classical before military 2. This will lower your timber costs allowing for more troops.

Then research Classical. Upon reaching classical you want to immediately build a mine at your largest mountain. Then build a stable and a seige factory. Depending on map and resources available, you can generally afford lots of archers, several heavy inf, several light cav, and a few heavy cav. Also 2-3 catapults. You can wait around for more resources and get a ton a troops, but Id rather attack sooner than later. You will be at 100 commerce cap, so it doesnt pay to wait around for very long. I build a university while my troops are en route.

At that point you attack! Often players will have just finished their 3rd city when you attack, and I prefer to go for the second city and cause some serious trouble for them. Taking a newly founded 3rd city isnt going to hurt them very much. Keep you troops out of city firing range while you seige it. You want troops to be as fresh as possible for defending the city once you take it, also your opponent might have an attrition tech which will inflict a little damage. If you're feeling bold, send your unique heavy infantry in to speed city capture.

After Taking the City

When your opponent sees this attack he will probably do one of two things, 1)build lots of troops right away and try to take back the city, or 2) Give up the city without much a fight, while expanding in other directions and attempt to out tech you and take over later. It is key to know which route your opponent takes! A little scouting will tell you whether he is building up his military for a strike, or his economy for a boom/tech.

If he tries to get the city back right away, then you need reinforcements. Once you have taken the city you want to 1)make citizens!! 2)repair the city!! 3)garrison your troops so they are at full health 4) build towers. If there is no temple, build one.

If he's teching, you need another university quickly, and research science 2 and commerce 2 to get your economy growing again. Max your commerce ASAP and get medieval for forts. He may try to boom to gunpowder or further, make sure you keep up with him.

I have not tried this on sea maps, but I think you can even skip an early dock since you are getting bonus wealth from your cities. Tell me what you think.

Last edited by HalfLotus on 19-08-2003 at 06:57

	19-08-2003 23:56									#2
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: I have not tried this on sea maps, but I think you can even skip an early dock since you are getting bonus wealth from your cities. Tell me what you think.

IMO, docking on water maps is mandatory, for the food as well as the wealth. The wealth is just gravy. A farm + villager costs ~100 after your first set of 5. You can get a bunch of fishing boats out before the cost ramp goes over 100. It's much more efficient to have villagers go on wood and fishing boats go on food.

Also, you'll want that dock and lots of wood income to pump military ships on water maps. Yes, your fishing is vulnerable, but you'd best be controlling the water regardless of whether you got fishing going on it or not.

	20-08-2003 03:08									#3
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I'm suggesting to hold off your dock and/or market for the purposes of making this classical rush as strong as possible. Under normal booming circumstances I would build a dock very early. After capturing your first city, you will of course build a dock and several markets, along with boats.

Remember my roman cities are generating +15 wealth automatically so the fishing bonus is less attractive than with other nations.

I'll try some math. The six farms I build cost 48+52+56+60+64+68 lumber. Plus 11-16 food for each citizen working on it (gross cost is 31-36, and farm completion bonus is 20 food). Thats 348 lumber and 81 food.

Dock costs 70 lumber and 6 fishing boats costs 40+45+50+55+60+65. Thats 385 lumber and you have to locate 6 fishing spots which could take quite awhile on most maps. I would be generating 60 extra wealth but its not going to help my rush which is food, timber, and metal limited...wealth is not an issue.

Perhaps a one city build with a Dock could get your resources capped, provided you had an exceptional starting lumber situation. In this case you would save 60f 60t (cost of second city). Because of the Dock cost, its only cost effective if you make all 6 fishing boats and forgo your second city. Sounds dicey but I will test it.

Time is very important in early attacks...my main concern is wandering around looking for fishing spots when I could have already built several farms with no worries.

	20-08-2003 05:40									#4
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

You're forgetting to add in the civ1 upgrade, (160f?) and the second town (60f, 60w). Now how favorable is fishing? I rarely make second town on water maps. Time required to find fishing is map dependent. On "water" maps it's easy though. You can use auto scout with fishing boats as well.

	20-08-2003 05:42									#5
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Out4Blood You're forgetting to add in the civ1 upgrade, (144f?) and the second town (60f, 60w). Now how favorable is fishing? I rarely make an early second town on water maps. I spend the resources on commerce upgrade instead and devote most of villagers to wood. Time required to find fishing is map dependent. On "water" maps it's easy though. You can use auto scout with fishing boats as well.

	20-08-2003 08:31									#6
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I mentioned the second town, but you're right about the civic upgrade, that will make a decided resource advantage. I'll be sure and test that as well. Could be deadly on water maps.

I'm still concerned about the time it takes to find 6 fishing spots. I play 1v1 on small maps. Usually I pump out a few fisherman and put two on auto explore, then add my fisherman as I find the spots...even this way it takes a bit of time. It's a risky proposition considering how early this attack is. I shall test and see!

Thanks alot for the feedback, the silence in these forums is deafening.

	20-08-2003 08:58									#7
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: [SIZE=1] Thanks a lot for the feedback, the silence in these forums is deafening.

Definitely; nice number crunching.

I have little knowledge of Rome or Classical attacks but I am interested in your line of inquiry. Is this purely a patch 3 strat or have you done some classical attack testing with the current build?

	20-08-2003 10:39									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Don't be worried about wood spots. Just drop your second lumber camp where you would have placed a town anyway. Then when you are rolling in resources, you drop a town there for the lumber mill upgrade impact.

	20-08-2003 22:26									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Thats sounds perfect out4blood, I will do that indeed. =)

Drachen I haven't tried this in patch 2. I was excited about the extra wealth and wanted to so what I could do with it, namely delaying a market and dock for maximum military punch in classical. Patch 2 Roman cities get +10 wealth, so I'm sure it could work with similar effectiveness. You would probably focus more on making your unique heavy infantry (Legions), having less wealth for archers.

Legions have faster speed than other Classical age Heavy Infantry, which makes them better for harassment and then quickly moving out of city firing range. Also better at surrounding/attacking a city when trying to reduce it.

Prior to patch 3, I would generally boom to Medieval and start my offensive then...often "border flanking" toward their capitol by pushing with Forts.

I enjoy Romans because they several fun bonuses. I like harassing with my free Heavy Inf, maybe scaring them into thinking I'm ancient rushing. The Fort border bonus makes applying lots of pressure very easy....I have razed many a building simply through attrition. And the wealth bonus can be used for rushing as I haved described...or for booming, allowing you to make lots of scholars early.

	21-08-2003 06:09									#10
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

HalfLotus;

I upgrade to Beta today and at some point soon I'll check out the Romans. They are a very solid Ancient Rush nation and I hope you are right about using them for a Classical period attack. I won't go into any detail till I do some research but finding a viable early, non rush, attack strategy interests me and I look forward to your posts.

	27-08-2003 17:37									#11
	Put an end to popups!

but if you compare these extra +15 gold (+30 if you found a second city) and the free heavy inf. to:

33% cheaper peasants
2 free siege units per workshop
25% cheaper military research
+3 siege range (allows you to put the infantry in front of the catapults without trouble)
200% faster assimilation (very helpful if the enemy is trying to retake the city immediately.

Romans might be nice for rush tactics, but there is a tribe that is perfect ...

	05-09-2003 22:57									#12
	Got spare money?

And when you choose Turks your opponent will see that coming from a mile away.

I've been trying this kind of attack with the British and I think its even more effective. The main limitation of this build is that you are staying at Commerce 1 for an extended period of time, the British commerce cap bonus alleviates this problem somewhat. Also they get free archer upgrades! If your borders are touching or very close you can build a forward tower (+2 range) for garrison and for the high annoyance factor. What really kills this attack is when your 2-3 catapults get rocked. In that case its nice to have those Roman Legions. =)

Overall I think this is a weak build compared to say, a Medieval assault, as Romans get their forts (and therefore generals) cheaper...also supply wagons (key for siege units) and spies. You can build forts in classical but you'd be hard pressed to afford a fort and general and siege units and still make a timely assault.

The wealth is key because I dont try for an all out rush...I want wealth for strong military _and_ to produce plenty of scholars as your opponent will surely try to out-age you. The idea is to hit hard in classical, take a city, and still have enough knowledge to stay in the tech race. Also this extra wealth allows for more Science research which helps your economy greatly.

	06-09-2003 06:55									#13
	Re: Roman Classical attack-patch 3. Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by HalfLotus I've been playing mostly Romans in my solo games, and was happy to see them get a buff in patch 3. With the +15 wealth I wanted to try an earlier attack which takes advantage of this. On to the strat... Gameplan I will attack in Classical age with a few heavy infantry, several archers, a few light and heavy cav, and 2 or more catapults. For this I need all level one techs, and Military 2 (for siege). The Roman bonus wealth allows for more archers and heavy cavalry than most nations, and allows you to delay building a market. Also you get your bonus heavy inf from barracks.

So how did your strat work out?

	06-09-2003 09:18									#14
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Its been different every game really. Alot of people quit when they lose a city (not sure why), but most will hang on and it becomes a tech race after that. Their counterattack is always exciting. I like early action, but I dont like to put all my eggs in one basket which is why I try to get scholars and science techs as soon as possible after I start sieging.

Generally it works because most people arent ready to fight until gunpowder (some in medieval). It doesnt work great on very low timber maps. It almost works best on water maps because of the extra fishing wealth, and people really dont expect an early attack on East Indies.

Just food for thought really, where's all the civ2 strategic masterminds of apolyton?

edit:it doesnt work well vs chinese and maya also.

Last edited by HalfLotus on 06-09-2003 at 11:25

	08-09-2003 13:06									#15
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

It also doesn't work against aztecs, I think.

	09-09-2003 11:53									#16
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Aztecs are strongest in gunpowder and later, a classical attack would be good I think. And you have lots of wealth for heavy cavalry to beat their free infantry.