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Velociryx
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of Candle'Bre
Apr 1999
time: 05:30
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Wasn't sure WHERE to post this, so I thought I'd make a new thread for it....
General observations:
1) Agree that striking south to the cities of: Salamanca, Valencia, Merida, Essigbar, and Murcia is the way to go, for our first offensive.
2) Salamanca troubles me. We (GS) don’t need it, and I’m not sure if RP can hold it if we retake it and gift it back to them (assuming it doesn’t autoraze). If it autorazes, I think we ought to just let it die quietly….least till the dust settles.
3) We need to prepare at least one, preferably two settlers for our push to reclaim southern cities. That way, if any of them (especially Murcia/Valencia) autoraze, we can rebuild them quickly and gift those cities back to RP.
4) If we’re heading south, then IMO, our first objective should be Valencia/Murcia, with what forces we can shift from their current positions on Bob moving to the hill just NE of Valencia in preparation for a push, with galley-forces en route to that location.
5) Ideally, we’ll have sufficient firepower to bring to bear with our beach head forces to retake (hopefully without autorazing) Valencia, and then, could bring our galley forces into the city direct, for a push against Murcia.
6) My reasons for preferring an initial strike at those two cities is simply that it extends and expands the beachhead, and frankly, they’re easier to hold onto (an important consideration for a beleaguered RP), because they’re further from the front—where we can expect to see a steady stream of enemy fast movers coming from. Also, the fact that it denies our enemies a lux and some really productive real estate cannot be overstated!
7) If we mean to give those two cities back to RP (and I think that it’s the overwhelmingly right choice), then Essigbar MUST not be allowed to remain in enemy hands. I propose then, that we mass troops in front of it and hammer them mercilessly with Cats until they either leave, or are too weak to withstand a general assault.
8) By the time we achieve these goals, we’ll have a good many more assets on Bob (at least one more trip with the galleys….don’t really have a sense for how many turns it takes them to make the trip), and while we’re freeing up those two RP cities, we need to get the road from Barcelona to Salamanca/Merida rebuilt, and start massing troops in that vicinity for a strike, with the plan being to link up with the force that takes Essigbar. What forces are left in the vicinity will be hard pressed to hold Essigbar against the force we’ll have moving up from the south, and will likely simply flee toward Salamanca so as not to get crunched between our two forces. Alternately, they may attempt to lash out at the forces massing near Salamanca, but if they do, they as good as give up both cities, regardless of the outcome of that battle.
9) With the south secure, we focus on giving RP time to properly defend their cities, running interference for them, and generally blocking in strategic terrain, while massing additional forces and preparing roads for a second push.
10) I realize that this does nothing in the immediacy to relieve RP’s situation in Pamplona…what it DOES do is give them back some semblance of an economy to work with, clean up one “front” in this war, and make the lands around Pamp a LOT more predictable and safe…at that point (the point at which Salamanca is taken), RP will see relief in their capitol.
11) We need to do all of the above while focusing on the most cost-effective troops available....Pike and Med Inf....this means being VERY careful with what Knights we have, as I'd like to see us not adding many (if any) knights to our force till we get a bulked up population of pike and medinfs. They are in their GA's, and their units are pound for pound better than what we can throw at them. Since we can't beat them in terms of quality, let's go quantity to offset that.
Thoughts?
-=Vel=-
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Arrian
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Kneel before Grog!
Jul 2001
time: 00:30
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Ok, looked at the map, and here are my thoughts:
Valencia is the city that matters most and is easiest to defend down there. Accordingly, that is the only one we try to keep until we've destroyed most of the enemy's forces in the area.
Otherwise, imagine that they just abandon cities and mass a big 'ole stack of Riders on Valencia 4, 4, 7 (hill, across river). They can reach Murcia from there, and also remain fairly impervious to attack (we'd have to march a slowmover stack over there and either attack cross the river, taking the 25% combat odds hit, or march the stack further around to the north. Meanwhile, of course, they could just move again). Valencia, however, is somewhat protected by forest which would prevent GoW from hitting it from V 447.
I'll say this in the RP 130 thread too: RP's regular pikeman that is wandering around in the mnts really should move 4, 7, and fortify. That mountain road is a reinforcement highway for ND! At least make them punch through 3hps of 6.75 defense (and warn us by killing the unit)!
-Arrian
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Arrian
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Kneel before Grog!
Jul 2001
time: 00:30
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quote:
And if the baddies retreat to the high ground, I propose we treat them to the same medicine we treated the voxians....paste them with cats til they take the hint and skedaddle, or are too weak for the terrain boost to save them. |
There are two problems with that:
1) Vox's troops were in our territory, and therefore could not heal. We would need a lot of settlers, plus 116 gold per city, plus 6 turns, to close off the neutral territory I'm worried about (build city, set to temple, wait 1 turn, rush, 5 turns after that we get the culture expansion).
2) Vox's troops were slowmovers. Immortals could not outrun us. GoW & ND's main attack forces are 3-move units that can run rings around us.
In short, it ain't that easy, Vel.
-Arrian
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Velociryx
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of Candle'Bre
Apr 1999
time: 05:30
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Quite true, Master Arrian....on all counts....however: as you say, their main advantage is their speed.....that is the advantage they give up by running to high ground. We can MAKE them move per the plan above, and if they move, we can't outrun them (until and unless we get the borders sorted out, which will take time). Thus, the only real option we have when facing an enemy we can't catch up to, is to force him to come to us, or to attack him in unfavorable situations (as you mentioned).
Probably, we'll have to do a bit of both, but where possible, we should opt for the first one.
This means, specifically NOT creating uber stacks that they feel they cannot defeat. It means keeping the stacks thin, give them the feeling that they CAN take us on, and let them come (with a follow-up force sitting somewhere they can't quite see to mop up after).
We can do this....I know we can....
-=Vel=-
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DeepO
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supporting Candle'Bre
Jan 2002
time: 06:30
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Vel, I thought we had already some 35 units on Bob, including some 10 knights. However, those close by are damaged in our last attack on the riders. The galleys, I think, are primarily to transport troops more South, not to get troops from Stormia to Bob. And we have 7-8 galleys being used as a ferry service, with more on route if we want to (which we might need to do, 3 of them are still up North, where they killed a couple of GoW galleys). A few galleys are still en route, as they were build on the East side of Stormia.
We might take advantage of the gap in attendance from GoW by moving a couple of our slowmovers close to Valencia. Because there is no road, they will have to cross flats for 1 turn, better to do that while few healthy rider are in reach. I think we can have some 8 units there this turn, IIRC, with more defending the hill next to Barca. Together with some knights, this might be enough to take Valencia in 3 turns, or at least create enough of a diversion to keep GoW from stacking Salamanca, and pinching Pamplona.
DeepO
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DeepO
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supporting Candle'Bre
Jan 2002
time: 06:30
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one moment... I was a bit mistaken: we don't have to use the flats, we can go over the hills. And we can't reach Valencia in 3, but need 4 turns. There is an extra hill there I didn't remember 
Ah, yes... 2 more riders up North (don't know where they went, we'll have to check our own save for that). So at most 9 riders, probably about 6... 1 in Valencia, S, Me, Mu, leaving between 2 and 5 free riders somewhere in the open. And I'm not sure, but weren't 6 riders already damaged? They would most likely not be used in the attack, seeing as how cautious GoW is with their troops.
DeepO
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Velociryx
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of Candle'Bre
Apr 1999
time: 05:30
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okay...in the spirit of the title of the thread, here's an odd idea.
Problem: We're in neutral territory, and enemy units can heal (speaking of the coming campaign in the south).
Possible solution: A semi-permanant, roving "camp" complete with our borders, to block off strategic turf.
We don't NEED to enclose the borders of the entirity of the southlands, we just need to block off the best terrain.
I'm writing this without the benefit of looking at the map again, but it occurs to me that a couple of wayward settlers accompanying our strike force, could do this quite handily. If we spy a group of enemy troops parked on a hill, daring us to attack and healing every turn, our response could be to simply build a city right next to them and put them inside our borders. No more healing, and now...a quandry. Relocate, attack the city, or face repeated bombardment.
Doing this, will of course, necessitate a greater focus on pikes, and the continual feeding in of more (and more settlers) to maintain our lines and secure our "camps" and when the troubles have ended, these "temporary cities" can be disbanded, or kept if in good locations.
Not saying that the entire war should be fought like this....it would be painfully slow, BUT....I can think of a couple of locations off the top of my head where it'd be a stellar, and unexpected move, and it would simplify the logistics of keeping some of the region's more favorable terrain firmly in our hands, or at least prevent enemy troops from healing up in good terrain. They want to stop to heal? Fine, let them do it in the flats and run the risk of getting waylaid by our two move troops. 
-=Vel=-
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Velociryx
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of Candle'Bre
Apr 1999
time: 05:30
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The other thing we need to do in the southlands (and this is in keeping with the theme of re-taking cities and using temporary "bridge camps" to extend our borders--is to isolate, limit, and constrict the area that the enemy forces can reasonably expect to operate in.
True, it is impractical to nail down all of the territory with our borders. We could do it, but the effort it would take is not worthy of the forces presently there, HOWEVER, where we have borders, we can also have extensive roads, and our two move units, inside our borders and on our roads, can run rings round their 3-move attackers. This will not completely nullify their movement advantage, as ours comes with a couple of strings attached, but the benefits we'll see from it simply cannot be overstated, IMO.
Roads and borders will win us this war....
-=Vel=-
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Velociryx
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of Candle'Bre
Apr 1999
time: 05:30
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NYE: Not exactly sure on the number of settlers needed, and not sure there's a solid answer for that (on the thinking that some of our "temporary camps" might get overrun by the attackers when we place them....so much the better though....if/when that happens, the battle is taking place in a place of our choosing (ie - better to have them rush us in the flats, inside a newly created town than to have us rush them in the hills). So we lose a couple of "camps" that way? Doesn't matter, from a pure shield-cost perspective, we're still coming out ahead, if we're defending those places mostly with Pike, given the shield cost difference of the units they're losing.
It should be an ongoing thing, but once we get bulked up on workers over on Bob, we should be constantly readying 1-2 new settlers, both for the temporary camp idea, to replace cities that are nixed during the prosecution of this war, and to found new ones when we clear patches of land where new cities would be viable.
Ziet: Couldn't agree more....we gotta act in the short term and plan in the longer. To that end, my sense of it is that as soon as we get 4-5 pikes in the vicinity of Valencia, we can at least park on the hill overlooking it and threaten....use it as a staging area.
Doesn't matter that they see the attack coming....difficult to reinforce Valencia for them, given the distances involved, and our forces are closer in any case. No way could they beat us to the punch, and if they tried, our forces will take the city before their reinforcements arrive, extending our borders there and our options.
-=Vel=-
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Velociryx
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of Candle'Bre
Apr 1999
time: 05:30
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That's a good question, and one I'm not entirely sure of the answer these days! Even if all the cities are safe from that, there's still the possibility that in our coming battles, our opponents will simply start to raze, rather than capture cities, so we'll still see some (potential) need for settlers to fill in those gaps, plus others to use as "camps" and "bridges."
Was thinking more about the "border bridge" concept earlier. The first place I see a use for one would be in the flats, right next to the hills, between Valencia and....that other burg down that way. Capturing Valencia will give us friendly borders there, and if I'm remembering the map correctly, a "camp" at the base of the hills NW of Valencia would link the borders AND put the hills inside our sphere of influence (no nasty surprises coming over the hill, and no healing ON the hill for our enemies.
With pike support in both, it would consolidate our position there, and isolate that...other town whose name escapes me.
Sort of a mid-range plan, but...something that tickled its way across my brain.
-=Vel=-
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Velociryx
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of Candle'Bre
Apr 1999
time: 05:30
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The more I think on it, the more I'm digging the idea of nixing our own iron for five turns as Arrian proposes....this works ESPECIALLY well for us because we can do it, build up a wampum lot of upgradeable troops, upgrade as many as we can with cash available, get back to building "da big guns" the old fashioned way, and continue to upgrade what cheap troops we could not afford to upgrade initially each turn.
This solves two very big, important problems for us.
First, it gives us lots of troops right NOW. Important because RP's need is immediate, and the bestest way to start putting the pressure on is not to wait any longer than is absolutely necessary to get a substantial force over there to HURT our enemies. We've got enough there to hold, but not to hurt. That needs to change, pronto.
Second, we've got ships and nada to transport on them. By nixing the iron, we'll give our Trannies plenty to do! (another, corallary consideration is that, if we have a city on Bob with a barracks, we can transport cheap troops....that way, IF something bad happens, and a trannie gets sunk....no great loss...MUCH better to lose 2 warriors on the deep blue than to lose 2 MI's. We can just swing said warriors by the local Bobian barracks, hit the ol' upgrade switch, and presto...insta meanie. That way, our transports can start getting the goods over there quickly, and we can upgrade wherever's convenient, then ship the newly armed and dangerous troopages off to wherever they're needed (the south in the immediacy, obviously).
-=Vel=-
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zeit
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Meet my blade!
Sep 2002
time: 06:30
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Please don't forget that using this method is a super-expensive venture- not only we need to actually upgrade the horde of those lousy wimps, but we also need to pay upkeep, while they are sitting at home, doing nothing.
OTOH, if we plan this right, and make sure we have enough money to make one big upgrade just when we've connected the Iron, and make sure we have what it takes to ship the boys to the front quicly, this means a HUGE boost to our military on Bob, and probably be able to launch an offensive quickly.
We need to weigh this seriously- hoarding money now isn't necessarily a bad thing, we'll want to research at flank speed soon, which means a nasty deficit. We also have RP to support, but perhaps this is actually good reason to get our army even bigger quicker- win something for RP.
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20-08-2003 17:26
(not including possible reinforcements from the West)
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