20-08-2003 18:28									#1
	Why do Protestants believe in the Bible (not a troll) Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

This is something I've always been curious about. Most Protestant sects formed by rejecting the way in which the Catholic Church interposed itself between God and the faithful, maintaining instead that Christians could practice their faith and know Jesus directly through the New Testament, especially the four Gospels.

Except that there are more than four Gospels. There's a Gospel of Thomas, of Philip, of James, of Peter, even of Mary Magdelene. It's just that these gospels aren't part of the New Testament.

And who decided that? The leading lights of the early -- that is, Catholic -- Church.

So, seriously, how can Protestants reject the Church, only to revere a book that was cobbled together by the Church to begin with?

	20-08-2003 18:32									#2
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Protestantism started off when Henry VIII wanted to get divorced and the pope wouldn't let him, it's just an evolution of Catholicism.

So they didn't reject "The Church" they rejected "A Church".

	20-08-2003 18:35									#3
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Weird thing about Protestantism, when it first started (I mean after just being so Fat Henry could get divorced) it was actualy quite an enlightened alternative to Catholisism. More direct, less bogged down with objects and ceremony and men with big hats. One could almost call it the Zen Buddism of 16th centuary Europe.

Now it's just a bunch of intolerant nationalist rightists with sex hangups.

	20-08-2003 18:36									#4
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I think questions like this should be asked in a more knowledgeable setting, if one is serious about answers and not another troll religion thread.

	20-08-2003 18:38									#5
	Re: Why do Protestants believe in the Bible (not a troll) Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly This is something I've always been curious about. Most Protestant sects formed by rejecting the way in which the Catholic Church interposed itself between God and the faithful, maintaining instead that Christians could practice their faith and know Jesus directly through the New Testament, especially the four Gospels. Except that there are more than four Gospels. There's a Gospel of Thomas, of Philip, of James, of Peter, even of Mary Magdelene. It's just that these gospels aren't part of the New Testament. And who decided that? The leading lights of the early -- that is, Catholic -- Church. So, seriously, how can Protestants reject the Church, only to revere a book that was cobbled together by the Church to begin with?

Liar.

	20-08-2003 18:39									#6
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quote: Originally posted by MikeH Protestantism started off when Henry VIII wanted to get divorced and the pope wouldn't let him, it's just an evolution of Catholicism. So they didn't reject "The Church" they rejected "A Church".

I think you're confusing C of E with Protestantism, mate.

Martin Luther nailing a bit of paper to the door of a Cathedral would be the real start of Protestantism.

	20-08-2003 18:39									#7
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Mike and problem_child: you're talking about Anglicanism, which has a very different history than most forms of Protestantism, precisely bcause it was about a power-play between powerful leaders. I'm thinking more about Calvinism, Lutheranism, etc.

	20-08-2003 18:39									#8
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Lemme guess... you're a Protestant? (hehe, get it? Protest- ant? Huh? Eh?)

	20-08-2003 18:41									#9
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See? Look at all the fine input you receive.

	20-08-2003 18:47									#10
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Okay sorry, you're a Texan first, and then a Protestant.

	20-08-2003 18:52									#11
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When did it become a requirement to know what you are talking about to post here?

	20-08-2003 18:55									#12
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last thursday

didn't you read the announcement?

Jon Miller

	20-08-2003 18:58									#13
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No, that would be outside the norm, for someone to have knowledge of something they spout opinion on.

Forgive me. You are correct.

	20-08-2003 19:07									#14
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Protestantism never rejected the Bible, it just rejected the Catholic Church interpretation of the Bible. Luther read the Gospels and concluded that salvation was by faith and that the Catholic Church had forgotten that truth.

Now the reason Protestants accept the 4 Gospels but not the other "gospels", is because we trust the conclusion of the early Church Fathers when they determined that only the 4 Gospels, Mark, Luke, John and Matthew were authentic and real.

	20-08-2003 19:07									#15
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Do some reading, if you seriously want an answer.

http://www.crosssearch.com/Science_...Church_History/

	20-08-2003 19:30									#16
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A more interesting question is why prots accept the teachings of the Church fathers regarding the Bible, but not the teachings based on tradition.

This sets protestantism apart from the schismatics.

	20-08-2003 19:37									#17
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Most likely the Protestants didn't add the other Gospels back in because they didn't know they existed. We got lucky and someone found the "gnostic" gospels in an urn in the desert (IIRC). It's the same reason why the New Testiment is translated from the Greek instead of the original Aramaic, they didn't have any existing copies.

What I find more curious is why the news discoveries haven't lead to a sea-change in Protestantism.

	20-08-2003 19:49									#18
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara We got lucky and someone found the "gnostic" gospels in an urn in the desert (IIRC). It's the same reason why the New Testiment is translated from the Greek instead of the original Aramaic, they didn't have any existing copies.

The "gnostic" gospels are not trustworthy testimonies. The 4 Gospels, Mark, Luke, John and Matthew, are trustworthy accounts.

	20-08-2003 19:51									#19
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Why aren't they trustworthy?

	20-08-2003 19:53									#20
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And why should we consider Mark Luke John and Matthew trustworthy?

	20-08-2003 19:59									#21
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quote: Originally posted by The diplomat The "gnostic" gospels are not trustworthy testimonies. The 4 Gospels, Mark, Luke, John and Matthew, are trustworthy accounts.

Yup, the bible is COMPLETELY true in every aspect...

	20-08-2003 20:02									#22
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The reason those four were in and the others were out is those are the only ones that mention Jeshua's divinity.

The bigger point is, if the Catholic Church was untrustworthy, then why trust it's decision on what to include and exclude?

Another thing I'm curious about is why the Protestants didn't look to Constantinople for spiritual guidance, or the Nestorians.

	20-08-2003 20:06									#23
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protestantism is all about being independent (thinking it yuor own way)

so it would make sense for the new discoveries to have a high impact on some people and no impact on others

which is what hsa occured

Jon Miller

	20-08-2003 20:07									#24
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Gah. The new Testament was standardized by the first ecumenical council in the time of Constantine, well into the age of elaborate ceremony. As such it is an "institution of men," or whatever slur the protestants are using these days.
The Gospel of Thomas was eliminated as gnostic and not especially valuable in the sense of genuine religious guidance. The others weren't put in because they were deemed unnecessary. The NT was never meant to be the be-all and end-all of religious scripture. It was and is the bare-bones essentials that every Christian should have access to. It isn't the only thing needed by the Christian church any more than a book of regulations is all the Marines need to stay in fighting shape.
And stop calling the early church Catholic. There were five great Churches in ancient Christianity, and Rome, which went on to become the RCC, was only one of them. Alexandria, Antioch, Constantinople and Jerusalem were actually *much* larger than Rome in those days, especially put together. And the supremacy of Rome thing doesn't count either; they were only "first among equals," that is to say given greater respect but no real authority, and the split between east and west happened when they got grabby for more. That's our version of the story. History textbooks are based on the writings of pro-catholic historians.

	20-08-2003 22:04									#25
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quote: Originally posted by MikeH And why should we consider Mark Luke John and Matthew trustworthy?

Because they were eye witnesses to what Jesus said and did.

The "gnostic" gospels are not trustworthy, because their sources are not reliable, and because they invent stuff about Jesus and teach unchristian doctrines. For example, the gnostic gospels claim that Jesus said that women must become male in order to enter the kindgom of God. That claim is clearly preposterous and unchristian. Based on the 4 Gospels, we know that Jesus never said anything like that.

	20-08-2003 22:09									#26
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand Do some reading, if you seriously want an answer. http://www.crosssearch.com/Science_...Church_History/

I love how you complain about other people trolling, but then don't post anything relevant or productive until your fourth post in the thread.

Elok: But if every other scripture is considered "untrustworthy" why would anyone ever read anything but the four gospels?

	20-08-2003 22:09									#27
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Elok - fair enough about my characterization of the first Church(es), but the larger point about the NT itself being a creation of man is what I'm getting at. It is worth remembering that some of the non-canonical Gospels were left out because they were considered heretical -- by hair-splitting Byzantine-era theologians, no less. Why should modern Christians believe them?

	20-08-2003 22:16									#28
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quote: Originally posted by The diplomat Because they were eye witnesses to what Jesus said and did. The "gnostic" gospels are not trustworthy, because their sources are not reliable, and because they invent stuff about Jesus and teach unchristian doctrines. For example, the gnostic gospels claim that Jesus said that women must become male in order to enter the kindgom of God. That claim is clearly preposterous and unchristian. Based on the 4 Gospels, we know that Jesus never said anything like that.

Clearly, you have never attempted to study the Gnostic gospels,

	20-08-2003 22:21									#29
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quote: Originally posted by The diplomat Because they were eye witnesses to what Jesus said and did. The "gnostic" gospels are not trustworthy, because their sources are not reliable, and because they invent stuff about Jesus and teach unchristian doctrines. For example, the gnostic gospels claim that Jesus said that women must become male in order to enter the kindgom of God. That claim is clearly preposterous and unchristian. Based on the 4 Gospels, we know that Jesus never said anything like that.

Well, IIRC we don't have any copies of the Canonical Gospels that date back as far as the time of Christ, so we don't really know that. Would you trust Boswell's Life of Johnson as an accurate life of Samuel Johnson (1704-1784) if we didn't have any copies of the text from before 1993?

Beyond that, though, there's a body of research that suggests that the names of the canonical gospels were only attached later.

	20-08-2003 22:28									#30
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quote: Originally posted by monkspider Clearly, you have never attempted to study the Gnostic gospels,

You don't know what you are talking about. Here is a study of the gnostic gospels.

http://www.dhushara.com/book/consum/gnos.htm

And here is a direct quote from the gnostic gospels:

Simon Peter said to them [the disciples]: 'Let Mary leave us, for women are not worthy of Life.' Jesus said, 'I myself shall lead her, in order to make her male, so that she too may become a living spirit, resembling you males. For every woman who will make herself male win enter the Kingdom of Heaven."

The gnostic gospels are unchristian because they completely distort what Jesus taught. That is fact!