20-08-2003 23:07									#1
	Miriam and liberal religion Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Ok so im talking with Princess of the Mark about my current game where im playing as Deirdre and fighting against Miriam. Now POTM is not interested in the game, but she finds the back story and the faction leaders personalities quite interesting.

"But daddy, shouldnt the believers and the Gaians be allies?"

You see we've given her a good "liberal" religious education (Conservative Judaism - TM) She's heard all about those aspects of Jewish religious law that oppose doing damage to nature, about how environmentalism is respect for creation, etc, etc. And to her religion and environmentalism are natural allies.

Now she knows about Jewish groups that are less "liberal" (if i told her the beleivers are the enemies of feminists she'd "get it" immediately - she quickly grasped why Miriam doesnt like Zakharov) She knows a certain amount about Christianity. Shes not real clear on the differences between liberal and fundamentalist Christianity ( I mean is this something a Jewish girl needs to learn growing up?) And she certainly isnt familiar with historic "god has given the earth to man to exploit" theology, or current nasty remarks about pagan greenies made by fundies. So Miriam just doesnt make sense to her.


Im sure there are people here who belong to Christian denominations that subscribe to "we hold the earth in trust" kinds of philosophies. Do the ideological conflicts and thus the viewpoint implicit in the backstory bother you? Doesnt it seem that Miriam is a cartoon version of US fundamentalism circa the late 1990's? Less of a basic ideological phenomemon in world history than are figures like Lal or Yang?

And isnt Fundie not well designed in that sense? Should Miriam bases be immune to being bought? After all clerics have factions, and theological disputes that can make it easy to buy them. Seems this was simply an attempt to reverse the Fundie Civ2 weakness against late Demo.

More on the other factions, and other backstory philosophical issues later.

	21-08-2003 06:45									#2
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I like to hear what other factions would be like running fundamentalism.

Fundy Hive
Fundy Peacekeepers
Fundy Morgans!

	21-08-2003 08:35									#3
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LOTM – I don’t think it is so much that Miriam isn’t environmentally aware; it is just that she does not understand a ‘living’ planet. After all, the Bible says that G_d made man in his image; he didn’t create some planet-wide fungal ecosystem/sentience. My take is that this would be outside her understanding of G_d and His laws (as stipulated by the Bible), and as such her people would have a harder time coming to grips with the alien ecology’- hence the “-1 Planet” the Believers suffer under. By comparison, the Gaians are philosophically ready to accept and understand this concept of a Planet-wide sentience, and others are neutral.

I don’t think running FM, which generates a nasty Planet penalty, is in the same type of Planet penalty, though. This FM implies rampant ecological exploitation and degradation, which would make the people less attuned to the sentience of Planet, and make Planet more than POed at those who are less than friendly to it.

Hydro

	21-08-2003 11:37									#4
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If you try to translate ANY of the factions from their real-world inspiration into game terms, there is a wide scope for (mis)interpretation. I personally don't think any of the factions have very much to do with their purported aims, rather, they're all cartoonish renditions of far more complex systems who have to deal with real-world issues. Some examples:

What do environmentalism and pacifism have to do with each other? If being a pacifist and an environmentalist are innately connected, then how do you explain the fact that the most environmentally active President in US History (T. Roosevelt, fyi) was also a decorated war hero who oversaw the largest military buildup of his nation's army until WW1?

A free market economy is bad for the planetary ecology, but a high industry rating isn't? So you're saying by affixing price controls to wheat and regulating the telecommunications industry, America can reduce its pollution?

How exactly does operating a planned economy stimulate the birth rate? Does the state run steel mill operate a baby-factory on the side?

The moral here is that the SE effects and innate properties of the factions are only game concepts whose primary purpose is to create a complex network of options with varying synergies, depending on which options you choose. Their resemblance to the real world systems and values that inspired them is only skin deep, and falls apart in the face of the most casual evaluation.

	21-08-2003 17:07									#5
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quote: A free market economy is bad for the planetary ecology, but a high industry rating isn't? So you're saying by affixing price controls to wheat and regulating the telecommunications industry, America can reduce its pollution?

The mineral count does cause eco-damage, industry just lowers the cost of making something, so i'd look at the industry rating as better forms of machinery that can produce something quicker+cleaner. Therefore +4 industry and 10 minerals at a base is fine, but +4 industry and 70 minerals (US) starts to annoy planet

FM represents hating anything that gets in the way of profit, ie the worms attacking mining operations or the fact that there is such a thing as an ecosystem which needs to stay in balance.


Also planet is described as an "awakening god" considering a commandment is not to worship false idols and that there is only one god might cause some unrest in the Believers that others such as the Gaians start almost praying to planet

quote: How exactly does operating a planned economy stimulate the birth rate? Does the state run steel mill operate a baby-factory on the side?

Look at China, benefits for families with 4 children perhaps ? (yes i know they've swung the other way now trying to reduce) Since the country is industry based a family will want as many males as possible to go out and work in the factories to generate an income aswell, much like medieval times.

	21-08-2003 19:08									#6
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good response on the idea that miriams problem is with god-like nature of planet.

Except i would say that may general impression of her, from the quotes she is given in diplo, make her both more generally cartoonish, and more anti-green. Her references to Deirdre as eco-daft, etc start well before Deirdre can have any real idea of what is going on on planet (of course thats a game design limitation - is it reasonable to expect the diplo quotes to change after certain techs are developed? I dont think so - lots of work for a minor backstory detail)

Also - Miriam has high morale troops - an echo of the military advantage of fundie in Civ2 - but THAT fundamentalism was clearly modeled on Islamic fundamentalism - in particular the Islamic Republic of Iran, whose Revolutionary Guards with their human wave tactics in the Iran-Iraq war seemed to be the model for the free "fanatics". Miriam is clearly a Christian(presumably fundamentalist Protestant) , and im not sure there are many recent example of this sort of thing
among such Christians

And i would note that whereas other factions get tech quotes that advocate their way of thought, Miriam really doesnt. She could be a real advocate for the beneficial effects to society of religious discipline and motivation - following essentially a Straussian line - or an Augustinian vision of society - instead all she gets is a comment on the networks " and it was never the streets that were evil" IE there may be evil on the internet, but the internets not evil - essentially a defense of the pro-cyber position (Brian Reynolds' position?) rather than a fundie neo-luddite, which would have been more interesting.

	21-08-2003 19:10									#7
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quote: Originally posted by CEO Aaron What do environmentalism and pacifism have to do with each other? If being a pacifist and an environmentalist are innately connected, then how do you explain the fact that the most environmentally active President in US History (T. Roosevelt, fyi) was also a decorated war hero who oversaw the largest military buildup of his nation's army until WW1?

I think BR was thinking in terms of 1990's era greens, not early 20thc Conservationism. Shows again that the focus is very narrowly on ideologies prominent in late 1990's US (with the possible exception of Yang)

	21-08-2003 19:15									#8
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quote: Originally posted by CEO Aaron How exactly does operating a planned economy stimulate the birth rate? Does the state run steel mill operate a baby-factory on the side? .

assumption must be that planned economy involves state supported childcare, guaranteed child support, etc that elimnates disincentives to child bearing in capitalist societies. Also better healthcare. Of course its known that in eastern europe and the USSR poor state provision of housing actually reduced birthrates, and that in 3rd world countries availbility of pensions reduces incentive to have children. Presumably BR assumes that all societies on planet are advanced enough to have pensions, and that they will not make the housing mistakes of the USSR.

	22-08-2003 05:55									#9
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BR and friends did not forget that the eco weenies could be militant. You haven’t forgotten our Pink Terrorists, have you? The Cult of Planet is exactly what you describe – a bunch of ideological monkeywrenchers dedicated to Planet.

I agree that many of the factions are exaggerated to some degree. For instance, think on how Miriam is portrayed in the Unity back-story. In that storyline she is sympathetic and heroic. But, she is one of the ‘bad guys’, like Yang and Santiago, a foil for the goodie-goodies Dee and Lal. The build in dialog reflects this, and to a great degree the faction’s priorities are tailored toward being ‘bad’ (e.g. – aggressive).

The dialog is based on the sympathy rating, however, and you will see this if you dig into the dialog text files. “Nature Loonie” is a pretty generic put down for Dee by all the other factions, and all the factions have their set put-downs for other factions they don’t like. That, if nothing else, is a good indicator of where you stand.

I don’t fault the characterizations and generalizations, though. To me it gives it flavor. Making it more ‘real’ would make it more vanilla and, while vanilla is good, I much prefer a good Rocky Road (pun intended).

Hydro

	22-08-2003 06:02									#10
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For a moment I thought about Bullwinkle when I read Rocky Road.

	22-08-2003 06:06									#11
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http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=75160

	22-08-2003 14:58									#12
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Is it just me or in the Journey to Alpha Centauri story that comes before the books Yang seems like Hannibal Lectar without the whole "i'll munch on your liver" thing ?