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SlowwHand
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of The Cooler
Sep 1999
time: 23:30
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41 minutes ago
By IAN JAMES, Associated Press Writer
JERUSALEM - Israel decided Wednesday to carry out military strikes against terror suspects, an official said, as the Palestinians held an emergency Cabinet meeting to decide how to respond to a Hamas suicide bombing that killed 20, including five Americans.
Israeli officials chose to strike militants regardless of what the Palestinian Authority (news - web sites) does, a security official said on condition of anonymity. The raids were expected to begin later Wednesday. A column of 13 Israeli tanks was seen lining up outside the West Bank town of Ramallah, Palestinian witnesses said.
The Palestinian Cabinet did not announce a decision after its two-hour session, except to say the rule of law in the West Bank and Gaza Strip (news - web sites) would be enforced. The final say is up to Yasser Arafat (news - web sites) and top PLO officials, who will meet later Wednesday with ministers.
After the Cabinet meeting, Prime Minister Mahmoud Abbas received a phone call from Secretary of State Colin Powell (news - web sites), who said "the Palestinian Authority should take immediate measures to stop the deterioration," Palestinian Information Minister Nabil Amr said.
Tuesday night's Jerusalem bus blast also wounded more than 100, including about 40 children, returning from the Western Wall, Judaism's holiest shrine. It was the deadliest Palestinian terror attack since the "road map" peace plan was unveiled three months ago by President Bush (news - web sites).
The Palestinian Authority's next move could well determine the fate of the U.S.-backed peace plan.
Earlier Wednesday, Palestinian security chief Mohammed Dahlan met with Palestinian security commanders in the Gaza Strip, ordering them "to be on high alert to implement whatever decision will be taken by the political leadership and the Palestinian Authority against those who were involved in yesterday's attack in Jerusalem," spokesman Elias Zananiri said.
Abbas, who could lose his job if violence persists, has said he will not confront the militants — as required by the peace plan — because he fears internal fighting.
Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon (news - web sites) and top defense officials decided Wednesday to give Dahlan time to begin cracking down on the militants, a security official said on condition of anonymity.
Security officials decided against targeting Arafat, the defense official said. In the past, troops have besieged Arafat's West Bank headquarters.
Bush called Sharon on Wednesday, said Israel's vice premier, Ehud Olmert.
Abbas was meeting with Islamic Jihad leaders in Gaza City on Tuesday when he learned of the bombing. Condemning the attack as a "terrible crime," Abbas also broke off contact with Hamas and Islamic Jihad, called off upcoming trips to Italy and Norway, and convened the emergency Cabinet meeting.
U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan (news - web sites) urged Abbas "to take decisive action to arrest the instigators of this attack and prevent such attacks from happening again," U.N. spokesman Fred Eckhard said in New York.
Yasser Abed Rabbo, the Palestinian Minister for Negotiations with Israel, said, "We have decided to boycott Hamas and Islamic Jihad, and at the same time the Palestinian leadership has instructed the Palestinian cabinet and the Palestinian security services to take all necessary measures in order to preserve the Palestinian national interests."
In the Gaza Strip, Hamas leaders insisted Wednesday they remain committed to a three-month truce they and other militants declared unilaterally on June 29, but said they reserve the right to revenge the killings of operatives by Israeli troops.
There were indications that the bomber, disguised as an ultra-Orthodox Jew, tried to settle a personal score with the attack. The assailant, 29-year-old mosque preacher Raed Mesk from the West Bank city of Hebron, was friends with an Islamic Jihad leader in Hebron, Mohammed Sidr, who was killed by troops last week.
In the meantime, Israel froze all contacts with the Palestinian Authority and canceled the planned handover of two West Bank towns to Palestinian control, a move that was expected later this week. The Israeli army also closed border crossings to seal off the West Bank and Gaza Strip.
Palestinian legislator Saeb Erekat criticized Israel's decision, saying it was important to maintain contacts.
"The main message I want to send to the Americans is that ... every possible effort should be exerted to keep the road map and the truce alive," he said.
The suicide bomber detonated the explosives in the center of a tandem bus, which has two passenger sections, shortly after 9 p.m. on a main thoroughfare.
Five of those killed were American citizens, a U.S. Embassy official said Wednesday.
They included Mordechai Reinitz, 47, and his son, Yitzhak, 18, who lived in the Israeli coastal town of Netanya and had dual Israeli-American citizenship, embassy spokesman Paul Patin said. Their U.S. hometown was not immediately known.
Goldie Taubenfeld, 43, and her 5-month-old son, Shmuel, who were visiting from New Square, N.Y., also were killed, according to Patin and a family statement. Taubenfeld had 13 children.
The fifth American victim was identified as Tihilla Nathanson, 3, from Monsey, N.Y.
Zvi Weiss, an 18-year-old seminary student from New York, was sitting in the front of the bus and escaped unharmed.
"The bomb went off at the back of the bus. Everything went black. I climbed out of the broken window and started running. All around me there were people covered in blood, screaming, some with limbs missing," Weiss said.
The bomb was packed with bits of metal for greater deadliness, police said.
The blast, just across from a synagogue, blew a hole in the bus roof and shattered the windows of a passing bus.
In an Israeli prison, Palestinian security prisoners applauded and passed out candy when they learned of the bombing, the Israel Prisons Authority said. Inmate leaders were sent into isolation and the rest had their TV sets removed as punishment, the authority said.
Since the intefadeh began in September 2000, more than 2,400 people have been killed on the Palestinian side and more than 800 on the Israeli side.
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Say bye-bye, Jackasses.
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Eli
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Israel
Jul 2000
time: 07:30
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Boo ****ing hoo.
A few stones and trees will get shot at, the international media will all go wild, the PA will stage some fake arrests, Israel will cancel future retaliations and it will all start again.
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Al'Kimiya
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There will be peace when the disputed areas are ethnically cleansed.
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yavoon
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quote:
Originally posted by elijah
Of course, it would be difficult for the Israelis to restrain themselves after such an attack, lets not get away from the fact that it is a heinous crime, the desire for revenge is understandable, but imo must not be allowed to bear fruit.
I suppose whether they do hold back or not is down to how much they want to break out of the circle of strike and counter strike. After all, that only kills more people pointlessly, and it is an utterly pointless conflict. Having said that, the Israeli military is not under the command of the victims families... |
beyond revenge the desire for results of justice the desire for preventitive action. If u sit on ur hands u BETTER BE DAMN SURE ur getting somewhere. cuz u r letting ur ppl continue to die w/o taking meaningful corrective action.
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Whaleboy
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Please make all cheques payable to Whaleboy
Jan 2003
time: 05:30
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quote:
beyond revenge the desire for results of justice the desire for preventitive action
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Justice is something that must be determined objectively, not by the wounded party against the aggressor. Thats not justice, thats vigilantism.
quote:
taking meaningful corrective action.
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Which is causing more people, your own and the pals to die. If the Israelis stop incursions, stop attacks, pull out of Palestinian towns and stop building settlements, all reasonable propositions, then the terrorism, or to be safe, the vast bulk of it, will stop.
Ideally, I'd like Israel returned to its legitimate borders, those of 1967, but realistically, the above is the best I expect.
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yavoon
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quote:
Originally posted by elijah
Justice is something that must be determined objectively, not by the wounded party against the aggressor. Thats not justice, thats vigilantism.
Which is causing more people, your own and the pals to die. If the Israelis stop incursions, stop attacks, pull out of Palestinian homes and stop building settlements, all reasonable propositions, then the terrorism, or to be safe, the vast bulk of it, will stop.
Ideally, I'd like Israel returned to its legitimate borders, those of 1967, but realistically, the above is the best I expect. |
so when u return israel to its 1967 borders and hamas blows up another person ona bus? wut then? do u say "whoops our bad, u can have that land back now israel."
and the sense of justice is not vigilantiism. its part of feeling secure in ur society. if crimes goes unabated or unpunished u cease to feel safe.
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Whaleboy
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Please make all cheques payable to Whaleboy
Jan 2003
time: 05:30
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quote:
so when u return israel to its 1967 borders and hamas blows up another person ona bus? wut then? do u say "whoops our bad, u can have that land back now israel."
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After the Palestinian people stop suffering, do not expect more terrorism, or rather, expect terrorist orgs to be running on empty, and THEN you may go in, providing the climate is right, to find your bullets new homes. Of course, its preferable to arrest them.
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and the sense of justice is not vigilantiism
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Like I said, justice must be objective. The sense of justice you refer to, being satisfied by vigilante acts is not justice, it is revenge. It may make you feel safer, but in reality, you are in more danger. As a government, should you be populist and pander to peoples simple minded dillusions in order to win votes, or do you take the measures necessary to ensure success? Soul searching time Mr Sharon.
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yavoon
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quote:
Originally posted by elijah
After the Palestinian people stop suffering, do not expect more terrorism, or rather, expect terrorist orgs to be running on empty, and THEN you may go in, providing the climate is right, to find your bullets new homes. Of course, its preferable to arrest them.
Like I said, justice must be objective. The sense of justice you refer to, being satisfied by vigilante acts is not justice, it is revenge. It may make you feel safer, but in reality, you are in more danger. As a government, should you be populist and pander to peoples simple minded dillusions in order to win votes, or do you take the measures necessary to ensure success? Soul searching time Mr Sharon. |
I am either not making myself clear or u r not understanding. I am not refering to quenching the thirst for revenge. I am reffering to an ability to keep ppl feeling safe in their own society. if u have a crime like suicide bombings and u sit on ur **** while its going on. ppl will cease to feel safe, THIS HAS NOTHIGN TO DO W/ ANGER OR REVENGE. It is simply put that ppl want to feel that things are being done actively to keep them safe. that the gov't is not just relying on THE GOOD WILL OF PPL WHO BLOW THEMSELVES UP in order to bring peace.
how much suffering are we behooved to stop? wut if their economy is still ass? wut if its backwards led by a bunch of radicals? are we obliged to simply make them a welfare state? how much will quench them? if they are a radical state how can we even get the money to the ppl(as opposed to say militant groups). u r relying on mechanisms that don't exist in palestinian society.
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Whaleboy
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Please make all cheques payable to Whaleboy
Jan 2003
time: 05:30
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quote:
I am either not making myself clear or u r not understanding
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I call BS!!! 
quote:
reffering to an ability to keep ppl feeling safe in their own society
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I am referring to an ability to keep them actually safe, if not feeling safe. Sometimes son you have to defy common sense in order to work with the big picture.
What does "whut" mean?
quote:
whut if..., whut if...., whut if..., whut if....,
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Terrorists are attacking you for a reason... that is that you have wrong them. Remove that reaon. (that is not NECESSARILY complying with their demands, and when the two deviate, never comply with the demands). Its pretty simple really, but in cases of sociologically inspired terrorism, force simply doesnt work. You deal with the society. Its not rocket science. Nonetheless, like I said, it wont win the politicians votes, and it will piss off the simple minded, so I dont hold out much hope of peace or an end to terrorism any time soon.
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yavoon
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quote:
Originally posted by elijah
I call BS!!!
I am referring to an ability to keep them actually safe, if not feeling safe. Sometimes son you have to defy common sense in order to work with the big picture.
What does "whut" mean?
Terrorists are attacking you for a reason... that is that you have wrong them. Remove that reaon. (that is not NECESSARILY complying with their demands, and when the two deviate, never comply with the demands). Its pretty simple really, but in cases of sociologically inspired terrorism, force simply doesnt work. You deal with the society. Its not rocket science. Nonetheless, like I said, it wont win the politicians votes, and it will piss off the simple minded, so I dont hold out much hope of peace or an end to terrorism any time soon. |
its funny how u allow the arabs to be real ppl. to have emotions, to be "freedom fighters" to have basic human needs(the need to feel secure!) and u demand the israeli's martyr themselves because U THINK that this will somehow make the terorrism stop. the grand canyon of double standards.
and btw I've never EVER heard that hamas is simply trying to stop israel from killing palestinians. I have heard that hamas wishing the total annhilation of israel and all jews.
ask urself this question. if tomorrow the israeli's stopped everything would the suicide bombers stop? My answer is no. they would not.
If tomorrow the palestinians stopped everything would the Israeli's stop? My answer is yes.
now there is some confusion in here, like what israeli's do w/ ppl who they think committed acts before, or how much faith either side has in the other's promises. but playing hypothetical the Israeli's are the reactants, the palestinians are the instigators.
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Whaleboy
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Please make all cheques payable to Whaleboy
Jan 2003
time: 05:30
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quote:
its funny how u allow the arabs to be real ppl. to have emotions, to be "freedom fighters" to have basic human needs(the need to feel secure!) and u demand the israeli's martyr themselves
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Again with the strawman. Both are real peoples, same emotions etc, but Israel is the bigger kid.
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and btw I've never EVER heard that hamas is simply trying to stop israel from killing palestinians. I have heard that hamas wishing the total annhilation of israel and all jews.
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I have no love for Hamas, being Jewish myself. Again, we do not comply with them, we create the conditions required for them to stop, as previously outlined. Indeed, it would seem that the architects of the "road map" would concur.
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ask urself this question. if tomorrow the israeli's stopped everything would the suicide bombers stop? My answer is no. they would not.
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If the Palestinians blame the Israelis for their woes, then it will be a case of give an inch, take a mile. That is why they need a state with equal or greater funding from that US to Israel. That will indeed help calm things across the Arab world, buying the West much needed political capital in that respect.
And no, they would not stop instantly. However, if my neighbour blows himself up on a bus, I do not expect the British army to occupy my street/town! In a few years, terrorism would be but a distant memory, and that is after all, what we are aiming for here. Force will only yield yet more innocent casualties on both sides.
quote:
If tomorrow the palestinians stopped everything would the Israeli's stop? My answer is yes.
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Would the Israelis pull out of the West bank? Possibly. Would they continue to target the now docile terrorist orgs, most likely. Would they continue to offend Palestinian beliefs (one of the causes of the current uprising)? Yes. Indeed, what would conceivably cause the Palestinians to stop?
One side has to put its neck on the line at some point, and, as the bigger kid, it must be Israel. Kudos to the Palestinians if they do so, which I encourage, but doubt it'll happen.
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playing hypothetical the Israeli's are the reactants, the palestinians are the instigators
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IIRC that last attack was provoked by the Israelis. If you keep going back chicken and egg style, you will find the current uprising was an egg laid by an Israeli chicken, namely Ariel Sharon.
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yavoon
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quote:
Originally posted by elijah
Again with the strawman. Both are real peoples, same emotions etc, but Israel is the bigger kid.
I have no love for Hamas, being Jewish myself. Again, we do not comply with them, we create the conditions required for them to stop, as previously outlined. Indeed, it would seem that the architects of the "road map" would concur.
If the Palestinians blame the Israelis for their woes, then it will be a case of give an inch, take a mile. That is why they need a state with equal or greater funding from that US to Israel. That will indeed help calm things across the Arab world, buying the West much needed political capital in that respect.
And no, they would not stop instantly. However, if my neighbour blows himself up on a bus, I do not expect the British army to occupy my street/town! In a few years, terrorism would be but a distant memory, and that is after all, what we are aiming for here. Force will only yield yet more innocent casualties on both sides.
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I think its been aptly pointed out that terorrism comes from within. there are many poor ppl in the world. they are not all terorrists. u continue to attack the problem from the outside, how much ass can the west kiss until the arabs are satisfied. well the problem is from w/in, they wont be satisfied. u can't stand outside palestine and change it. Though t his line of logic permeates ur entire attitude towards the middle east. that left alone it will become a modern industrialized socialist democracy and NOT a radical hotbed of extremist religious hate and warlords.
and ur analogy is very poor but can be extrapolated correctly. if ur neighbor blew up a bus, then a shopping mall then a disco then a movie theatre. police presence in ur neighborhood would greatly increase. this indeed might not be ur greatest fortune to have such neighbors. but now lets compound it by although u rn't necessarily willing to blow crap up, u certainly dont like the police and actually think ur neighbor is right in his actions. so now the police come and ask u questions and u tell them to go **** themselves. continue this for a few decades.
I still ask, what happens when Israel sticks their **** into the shredder and it doesn't help? wut will u do then? give israel its land back? destroy palestine? invade it? when u realize that the problem is from w/in what will u do? I think something like "glad I"m not in israel" comes to mind.
Last edited by yavoon on 21-08-2003 at 07:11
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yavoon
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wth how is that a censored word? man u guys have crazy censors.
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21-08-2003 01:23
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. I got a date with a pillow! 
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