25-08-2003 01:12									#31
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO Don't bet on it... if I had a super grown city, I would chose one that doesn't come close in culture. GS did it before, we had a city at size 12 many turns before anyone knew about it (IIRC we pumped it around turn 70), and it still doesn't show in the F11 of the PTWDG, even after completing 2 wonders. When you're producing such a super city early, it becomes a real goal to hide it... and as it can be very helpful for wonder prebuilding when going to the middle ages, any team which is only slightly isolated could come with that idea.

Sometimes you don't get a choice as to which cities become huge and which don't.

Hurricane didn't finish the Library or Colossus until pretty late, and it takes a long time to accumulate culture. It's highly likely that Parthemuende (and Arhus) has had a Temple since the very early turns of the game. We know for a fact that the German team loves to pile Temples everywhere and chances are any of their big cities would very likely have lots of culture. As evidenced by Arhus, size is a major factor... Apolyton was in the top 5 list for a long time even though we never even built a single cultural improvement there!

ND also hasn't had any cities above size 7 in the entire game, which appears to be one of their weaknesses... not building up cities to tremendous size to take advantage of the power you can wield with a huge population.

Look at the PTWDG. How many teams have had cities which are much larger than their capitals? How many teams have had size ~12 cities at all?

	25-08-2003 01:29									#32
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quote: Originally posted by rush thanks for pointing this out. I wasn't sure from your post whether you have done the checking. My appologies. When a civilisation goes into Anarchy, the Mfg and Productivity indicator drop significantly, so we can be quite sure that either Webringen/CGN have gone into Anarchy. Since Webringen is Religious and CGN is not, we can tell by next turn whether Webringen or CGN has moved to Republic.

MFG drops to 0, GNP does not change (unless you switch from Republic or Democracy, or have to switch a lot of WF to specialists to avoid disorder).

	25-08-2003 01:43									#33
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Wait... they're NOT in Anarchy!

I dropped down a little further than usual while testing, and it turns out they dropped from 56+ down to 40! We're now in 2nd place with 50, and 1st place is 58+.

This is the chart for the past few turns of GNP and MFG values (GNP is listed first, MFG second except for during anarchy):

530 BC 85+, 82, 67, 39, 38, 32, 19
510 BC ?, 84+, 68, 39, 36, 30, 18
490 BC ?, 87+, 71, 39, 34, 26, 16
470 BC ?, 87+, 69, 41, 41, 28, 11
450 BC 123, 103, 95, 41, 40, 26, 10
430 BC 126, 104, 103, 42, 40, 20, 8 MFG: ?, 56+, 50, 30, 26, 18, 6
410 BC 128, 119, 105, 42, 40, 22, 10 MFG: 58+, 50, 40, 31, 26, 19, 6

For GNP Apolyton is 3rd until 450 BC where it becomes first.

One of the superpowers jumped 15 GNP last turn and possibly lost 15 MFG!

	25-08-2003 01:53									#34
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Trip, you might be right in what we can learn from the PTWDG in this situation... however, from the start we anticipated Hurricane to be a wonder city, not a temple city. One of the reasons we chose to build a barracks there early on (which cost us the Pyramids, BTW) instead of a temple was that we wanted it to be hidden from the F11.

What is interested is the comparison with ND: would they play the same game, or take lessons from GS appearing with a size 12 city the moment they got a map? In the ISDG, would they be at size 7 in their largest cities, or take their potential and build a supercity, specifically for wonders? I agree not many will build a size 12 so soon, but believe me, it can be powerful if it is well positioned. And Webring certainly seems to have enough potential to do it, without sacrifying their growth (didn't they receive a free settler or city very soon in the game?). If they learn from the PTWDG, this would be one of the lessons to learn... again, don't be too sure size 8 is the biggest out there for the moment.

DeepO

	25-08-2003 01:59									#35
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Building really big cities and other internal issues like that are not first on ND's list of priorities. They like highly improved cities, especially with Temples, but they aren't as worried about their size. They certainly wouldn't NOT build a Temple in a city for the purpose of hiding it. Temple is usually the very first thing they build in every city.

I doubt that they would see GS with a big city and just say "hey, we should build a big city too."

	25-08-2003 02:04									#36
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Trip, my apologies, but are we the + ? Or does that mean it was our position when we ended the turn, but you tried to get us to more GNP / MFG, by letting us use less of the other (meaning sacrificing gold for shields, or the other way)?

if so, it looks like #3 dropped 10 MFG, not 15 MFG... which is still a lot. However, if Webringen (they were rel, right?) went into anarchy, they would come out of it before the F11 is calculated again for us, no? they start their anarchy when they discover rep, go through their turn in anarchy, and come out in repbublic before we see their production... in which they have more GNP, but use irrigation instead of hills. Or is this a completely wrong scenario?

anyway, there are two serious climbers in GNP, while either one of these, or both lost MFG last turn. It could be explained as some tile fiddling to avoid running surplusses in shields... a coastal tile is better then a hill if you're making 8 spt and only need 2 to complete whatever you're building.

DeepO

	25-08-2003 02:07									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Trip I doubt that they would see GS with a big city and just say "hey, we should build a big city too."

No, probably not, and this was not waht I meant. But we gained tow wonders out of Hurricane, wonders we would not have build if the city was still size 7. I only wanted to say: maybe ND learned something there, in that temples aren't always the first priorities

BTW, has the Pyramid city build a temple beforehand? can we calculate that? we should be able to get quite an accurate estimate on whether they build a library already in order to surpass the capitals on the F11 list... however I guess it would be a lot of trouble for a bit of trivia

DeepO

	25-08-2003 02:18									#38
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO Trip, my apologies, but are we the + ? Or does that mean it was our position when we ended the turn, but you tried to get us to more GNP / MFG, by letting us use less of the other (meaning sacrificing gold for shields, or the other way)? if so, it looks like #3 dropped 10 MFG, not 15 MFG... which is still a lot. However, if Webringen (they were rel, right?) went into anarchy, they would come out of it before the F11 is calculated again for us, no? they start their anarchy when they discover rep, go through their turn in anarchy, and come out in repbublic before we see their production... in which they have more GNP, but use irrigation instead of hills. Or is this a completely wrong scenario? anyway, there are two serious climbers in GNP, while either one of these, or both lost MFG last turn. It could be explained as some tile fiddling to avoid running surplusses in shields... a coastal tile is better then a hill if you're making 8 spt and only need 2 to complete whatever you're building. DeepO

The + means I tried to squeeze as much out of our economy as I could, but I couldn't reach the value of the team above us so they're at x or greater than the number I listed.

Actually, we have been 3rd in MFG until recently (~50), where we're now 2nd and 3rd place is 40. Before the drop, #1 and #2 were over 56, then one of them dropped down to 40. We know for a fact that CFC is 26, and GCA is 30. No one is 0. That means someone somehow dropped at least 16 in MFG.

If GWT changed to Republic, then they would recieve a MUUUUUUUUCH greater GNP increase than 15 (), and there's no way that they would DROP that much in MFG.

	25-08-2003 02:21									#39
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO No, probably not, and this was not waht I meant. But we gained tow wonders out of Hurricane, wonders we would not have build if the city was still size 7. I only wanted to say: maybe ND learned something there, in that temples aren't always the first priorities

Well, no one ND hasn't said a single word about Hurricane or either of the wonders you built, so I doubt it has had much impact on them.

quote: BTW, has the Pyramid city build a temple beforehand? can we calculate that? we should be able to get quite an accurate estimate on whether they build a library already in order to surpass the capitals on the F11 list... however I guess it would be a lot of trouble for a bit of trivia

I don't think we can calculate that without knowing the exact formula for the top 5 cities list (which we don't have). Though it's pretty safe to assume they did build one though. The city is 3rd and the top 2 cities are GCA cities which have had Temples since the beginning of time.

	25-08-2003 04:06									#40
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top 5 cities: I don't have an exact formulae, but up until vanilla Civ 1.29, it used to lay the biggest emphasis on culture... if a city had 10 more culture then another one, it would be ranked on top of it, no matter what size it had. This seems to have held for as long as I watched the F11 in the PTWDG. It might be that the number of lux, or the number of happy faces had an impact, but if so, it is not a grave one.

DeepO

	25-08-2003 05:48									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Trip Wait... they're NOT in Anarchy!

the last place civilisation does not have 0 Mfg in 430BC or 410BC, you are right, no one has gone into Anarchy.

the change in Mfg/GNP probably comes about when CGN/Webringen switch from shield producing tiles to commerce producing tiles. But that must be a significant & intentional switch to accumulate gold. They probably have the intention to upgrade their units or something.

	25-08-2003 08:10									#42
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Or, they are rushing research.

	25-08-2003 08:36									#43
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Notice the timing of this change - right after we became a Rep and had our GNP skyrocket. Perhaps whoever it is wants a wonder and thus fears we will get to it first. If we had a GL then they could fear losing Sun Tzu's or something.

	25-08-2003 09:09									#44
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Or, they are rushing research.

Bingo.

GWT is now a Republic.

	25-08-2003 11:01									#45
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Damn, I was hoping we be the3 only ones for a while...oh well, the reign was ours for a while