23-08-2003 06:42									#211
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Kind of makes you think revisionists need quite a few years before they can make their alterations to history believable doesn't it? Study of the original documents however makes the later Supreme Court decisions appear exactly what they are: Legislating from the bench.

	23-08-2003 06:46									#212
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Yeah, except the revisionism from those trying to claim a Christian legal basis is the real problem:

"A determined faction of Christians has fought against this wise and time-tested policy throughout our history. In the mid 19th century, several efforts were made to add specific references to Christianity to the Constitution. One group, the National Reform Association (NRA), pushed a "Christian nation" amendment in Congress in 1864. NRA members believed that the Civil War was divine punishment for failing to mention God in the Constitution and saw the amendment as a way to atone for that omission.

The NRA amendment called for "humbly acknowledging Almighty God as the source of all authority and power in civil government, the Lord Jesus Christ as the Ruler among the nations, [and] His revealed will as the supreme law of the land, in order to constitute a Christian government." Ten years later, the House Judiciary Committee voted against its adoption. The committee noted "the dangers which the union between church and state had imposed upon so many nations of the Old World" and said in light of that it was felt "inexpedient to put anything into the Constitution which might be construed to be a reference to any religious creed or doctrine.""

If Congress was smacking down the notion of ours being a Christian nation back in 1864, I don't think that bolsters the case much.

	23-08-2003 06:50									#213
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First of all I don't personally think that America was ever a Christian nation. The point is that our laws were established on theistic principals and Christianity had a great influence. Your earlier assertion that "Creator" can also mean a materalistic creation is absurd for example.

	23-08-2003 06:54									#214
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Boris, interesting quote. However, the unabridge dictionary states that common law in the US is the entire body of English law as it stood when we adopted the constitution - this included statutes of general applicability. Common law may have originated in the 5th century, but it is not limited to that era.

However, note that in the area concerning marriages and divorces, wills and the like, ecclesiatical law was predominate and controlled in England and for that reason was part of the US Common law.

	23-08-2003 07:01									#215
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There is a big storm here so I have to go. I must leave you all with a quote from John Locke in his letter of toleration 1689:

Lastly, those are not at all to be tolerated who deny the being of a God. Promises, covenants, and oaths, which are the bonds of human society, can have no hold upon an atheist. The taking away of God, though but even in thought, dissolves all; besides also, those that by their atheism undermine and destroy all religion, can have no pretence of religion whereupon to challenge the privilege of a toleration. As for other practical opinions, though not absolutely free from all error, if they do not tend to establish domination over others, or civil impunity to the Church in which they are taught, there can be no reason why they should not be tolerated.


Of course John Locke had no influence on the founding of the United States did he???

	23-08-2003 07:08									#216
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quote: Originally posted by Lincoln Your earlier assertion that "Creator" can also mean a materalistic creation is absurd for example.

Yeah, except the guy who wrote the passage referencing "the Creator" explicitely stated otherwise.

Regardless, the DoI isn't a legal document and thus has no legal force on our system of government, so saying it is somehow proof our laws are based on theism is simply false. It is a philosophical statement, not a legal one.

	23-08-2003 07:14									#217
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"Yeah, except the guy who wrote the passage referencing "the Creator" explicitely stated otherwise."

Please show where he said that.

	23-08-2003 07:19									#218
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quote: Originally posted by Lincoln "Yeah, except the guy who wrote the passage referencing "the Creator" explicitely stated otherwise." Please show where he said that.

It's in his original draft, the changes to which he strongly objected:

"We hold these truths to be sacred & undeniable; that all men are created equal & independent, that from equal creation they derive rights inherent & inalienable, among which are the preservation of life, & liberty & the pursuit of happiness; that to secure these ends, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed"

Note that "equal creation" has no necessary theological implications whatsoever.

	23-08-2003 07:20									#219
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Here is Jeffersons's rough draft of the Declaration:

When in the course of human events it becomes necessary for a people to advance from that subordination in which they have hitherto remained, & to assume among the powers of the earth the equal & independent station to which the laws of nature & of nature's god entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the change.

We hold these truths to be sacred & undeniable; that all men are created equal & independent, that from equal creation they derive rights inherent & inalienable, among which are the preservation of life, & liberty & the pursuit of happiness; that to secure these ends, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed; . . .

Who exactly is "natures god" and why did you omit that portion of his draft?

	23-08-2003 07:22									#220
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quote: Originally posted by Lincoln What is being illegally established now in America is atheism. Two wrongs do not make a right. I couldn't care less if the commandments are removed or not but the silly reasoning of atheists who wish to establish their own form of belief on government is not convincing either.

What a load of horseshit.

If atheism were being established, there would be a big monument in the Alabama Supreme Court saying "THERE IS NO GOD." The Pledge would say, "...one nation, under no god..." Our money would say, "We trust in no god."

There is a gigantic different between government not acknowledging the existance of a deity either way, and a government denying the existance of all deities.

It is absolute ****ing hysteria to say that atheism is being established. You're smart enough to know that, Lincoln.

	23-08-2003 07:23									#221
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quote: Originally posted by Lincoln Of course John Locke had no influence on the founding of the United States did he???

What's the relevance if they didn't they agree with his theological views? Obviously they didn't, since they didn't enshrine such a principle in law and atheism is as protected as theism.

Funny you should quote Locke. Would you think they shared his views on Catholics?

	23-08-2003 07:23									#222
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I find it interesting that Boris would only quote the part that supports his position and ignore the rest.

	23-08-2003 07:25									#223
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That's how you do effective revisionism Dino...

	23-08-2003 07:31									#224
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quote: Originally posted by Lincoln Who exactly is "natures god" and why did you omit that portion of his draft?

I omitted it because it wasn't relevant, since we were discussing the use of "Creator." You're now trying to shift it to something different, and understandably so.

"nature's god" (not capitalized, you'll note) is a reflection of Jefferson's Deism:

http://www.tompaine.com/feature2.cfm/ID/2615

"Nature's God, When evangelicals discuss religion they mean to speak of the God of the Old and the New Testament not the God of nature. The God of nature is an almost secular God and in a certain way that actually makes the point that that's a deistical understanding of religion not a specifically Christian understanding of religion. To talk about nature's God is not to talk about the God of Christ."

The Ten Commandments certainly aren't going to hold any sway over a deist nor what a deist thinks of the law. Look into the deist view god, and you'll see that it is a view far more akin to secular atheism than to theistic religion. The deist view is that the creator does not meddle in human affairs, and thus doesn't hand out laws. Mankind develops the laws:

"that to secure these ends, governments are instituted among men."

Laws are of men, not any god.

	23-08-2003 07:32									#225
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc I find it interesting that Boris would only quote the part that supports his position and ignore the rest.

Nice try, but see my response to Lincoln above. And I didn't selectively quote anything, as the source I pulled the text from only had the one paragraph on it, which was all I was looking at.

Any more red herrings you guys have to avoid the subject?

	23-08-2003 07:37									#226
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Jefferson was a Christian. He believed in God and that was who he was referring to regardless of your attempts at distortion.

	23-08-2003 07:38									#227
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Who is "natures God" Boris? Why do you avoid the question? Did he change gods in one paragraph?

	23-08-2003 07:41									#228
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov And I didn't selectively quote anything, as the source I pulled the text from only had the one paragraph on it, which was all I was looking at.

Sure. Yeah, OK.

quote: Any more red herrings you guys have to avoid the subject?

What's the subject again? This is my second post in the thread and we don't seem to be talking about Moore any longer.

	23-08-2003 07:41									#229
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quote: Originally posted by Lincoln Jefferson was a Christian. He believed in God and that was who he was referring to regardless of your attempts at distortion.

He was not a metaphysical Christian, as has been shown in this thread already. He considered himself "Christian" in the sense that he viewed Jesus as a great philosopher. He did not ascribe to the divinity of Jesus, and in fact outrightly rejected it. That's why he removed all references to the supernatural from his Bible:

http://www.angelfire.com/co/JeffersonBible/

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/front.../jefferson.html

Jefferson discovered a Jesus who was a great Teacher of Common Sense. His message was the morality of absolute love and service. Its authenticity was not dependent upon the dogma of the Trinity or even the claim that Jesus was uniquely inspired by God. Jefferson saw Jesus as

"a man, of illegitimate birth, of a benevolent heart, (and an) enthusiastic mind, who set out without pretensions of divinity, ended in believing them, and was punished capitally for sedition by being gibbeted according to the Roman law."

	23-08-2003 07:42									#230
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Actually, in all honesty Jefferson wasn't much of a Christian. He saw Jesus as a fascinating philosopher and dismissed the parts about divine origin as ludicrous superstition. He wound up doing a hackjob on the gospels to make them more in line with what he thought their proper direction should be. The guy wasn't lacking in sheer gall, obviously. I believe the "Jefferson Bible" was traditionally given to incoming Presidents for several years...

	23-08-2003 07:43									#231
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quote: Originally posted by Lincoln Who is "natures God" Boris? Why do you avoid the question? Did he change gods in one paragraph?

Why do you capitalize "god" when he doesn't, Lincoln?

And I addressed this above...it's the deist view, which bears no relation to Yahweh whatsoever. So where are the Ten Commandments and metaphysical Christianity figuring into that view? Nowhere.

	23-08-2003 07:43									#232
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Yes, I know that Jefferson was not a so called orthodox Christian but he certainly knew that God does not mean abiogenesis from matter and energy as you asserted earlier.

	23-08-2003 07:51									#233
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quote: Originally posted by Lincoln Yes, I know that Jefferson was not a so called orthodox Christian but he certainly knew that God does not mean abiogenesis from matter and energy as you asserted earlier.

Gee, considering abiogenesis wasn't even a scientific concept in 1776, that's a big "duh." But the deist view of creation and a creator was far more similar to that view than to the Christian one, which figures an intervening god. Deism believes that the laws of nature are what drive the universe, and those laws were set in motion by the initial moment of creation. Beyond that, the force of creation doesn't interfere. There's only a minor difference between this view and atheism, in that deists believe the creating force was a deity, while atheists do not. There's no metaphysical difference beyond this.

So saying deists like Jefferson would think the Ten Commandments is an edict from god is patently ludicrous, since his god would never issue any such edicts.

	23-08-2003 07:58									#234
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I have to go to bed. You are right that this thread is about the ten commandments and I engaged in a threadjack. But the sort answer to your question is that Jefferson's God would write the 10 commandments. He did not believe as you suppose he did. You might want to study his lengthy correspondence with John Adams. He clearly spells out his beliefs in the letters. Anyway, good night...

	23-08-2003 08:30									#235
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Uh, when talking about Christianity, Jefferson wrote things such as the following.

quote: The Christian god can easily be pictured as virtually the same god as the many ancient gods of past civilizations. The Christian god is a three headed monster; cruel, vengeful and capricious. If one wishes to know more of this raging, three headed beast-like god, one only needs to look at the caliber of people who say they serve him. They are always of two classes: fools and hypocrites." -- Thomas Jefferson And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerve in the brain of Jupiter. But may we hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated reformer of human errors." --Thomas Jefferson, Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823 It does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg. -Thomas Jefferson

http://www.angelfire.com/ky/nogod/quote.html

quote: Our civil rights have no dependence on our religious opinions, any more than our opinions in physics or geometry." Thomas Jefferson

and here's another one from a slightly different source

quote: The following is ARTICLE 11 of the Treaty of Tripoli, 1796, 1806 As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion,-as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen, and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

http://www.vision2020.moscow.com/Ar...7/msg00585.html

	23-08-2003 08:34									#236
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quote: Originally posted by Mordoch and here's one from George Washington

That's a misapplication, AFAIK. That text comes from the Treaty of Tripoli, which was not authored by Washington.

But Jefferson did refer to the metaphysical aspects of the Bible as a dunghill.

	23-08-2003 08:37									#237
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Corrected now.

	23-08-2003 08:42									#238
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The concept of equality of men that leads to "consent of the governed" and democracy began with Christianity which held that we were all born equal - created equal, this even though democracy itself had existed in previous times. This principle had a powerful effect on the Roman Empire in that many slaves were Christian and were equal in the eyes of the Lord with their masters. This lead to better treatment of slaves, and the abolition of slavery in modern times.

This Christian concept of equality also is found in our Declaration of Independence. It is also in our Constitution in a number of respects, including the 13th and the 14th amendments.

People who deny that Christianity had a profound impact on the philosophical underpinnings of Western civilization are in denial.

	23-08-2003 09:20									#239
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Personally, I'm inclined to go with the eight associate judges when they reminded Moore:

No man is above the law.

Not even Alabama Chief Justice Moore.

	23-08-2003 09:23									#240
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Wow, my TrollGuard just lit up like a friggin' xmas tree! WTF?

Great Caesar's ghost! LINCOLN IS BACK!

Summer cross-burning sessions must be winding down.