22-08-2003 08:16									#121
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quote: Originally posted by The diplomat Moore was elected by the people of Alabama. He made no secret about his views on the 10 Commandments. If he meant the monument as a religious icon, then his constituents wanted it so. We live in a democracy, doesn't the will of the people count?

In this respect, no, specially since he was elected by the people of Alabama to enforec the law, which is exactly what he is NOT doing. If anything, by doing all of this he is breaking the pledge he made to the people of Alabama. Shame on this man, abusing the trust of the people for his own gains. Thankfully 8 other Alabama Supreme Court judges realize what they are in office for.

	22-08-2003 08:18									#122
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quote: Originally posted by The diplomat Moore was elected by the people of Alabama. He made no secret about his views on the 10 Commandments. If he meant the monument as a religious icon, then his constituents wanted it so. We live in a democracy, doesn't the will of the people count?

No, it doesn't count. The will of the people in this case is in violation of the Constitution, and that is illegal. How hard is this to understand?

I suppose you'd be okay if a majority of people in a state wanted to feed Christians to the lions? You'll note that the Constitution is designed to protect the minority from such majority tyranny.

You clearly have no understanding of the Bill of Rights whatsoever.

	22-08-2003 08:19									#123
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quote: Originally posted by Asher It's quite civil. So much for your exempt list.

I haven't done anything yet, have I?

	22-08-2003 08:19									#124
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quote: Originally posted by The diplomat Moore was elected by the people of Alabama. He made no secret about his views on the 10 Commandments. If he meant the monument as a religious icon, then his constituents wanted it so. We live in a democracy, doesn't the will of the people count?

Hitler was elected by the people of Germany democratically, your point?

	22-08-2003 08:21									#125
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quote: Originally posted by Odin Hitler was elected by the people of Germany democratically, your point?

Bad example, though, since the Nazis never got majority support from the electorate.

	22-08-2003 08:22									#126
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov No, it doesn't count. The will of the people in this case is in violation of the Constitution, and that is illegal. How hard is this to understand?

No it is not in violation of the US Consitution!

quote: I suppose you'd be okay if a majority of people in a state wanted to feed Christians to the lions

Of course, not. You are being preposterous as usual.

quote: You'll note that the Constitution is designed to protect the minority from such majority tyranny.

It is also designed to protect the majority from a tyranny of the minority as we are seeing here.

quote: You clearly have no understanding of the Bill of Rights whatsoever.

I sure have a better understanding that you ever will.

	22-08-2003 08:23									#127
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MtG -

quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat So apparently it's optional for employees of the state supreme court to pay attention to directives of the chief justice as the administrative head of the state judiciary, because his directives have no force of law? Ok, then, problem solved.

What directives? First you call this stone an "administrative action" and then jump to a description of court procedures - it's a stone. Did he tell everyone working there they had to stop by the monument and read it before entering the building because that is his law or "administrative action"? Where is the force of law in his action? Of course they have the option - the option to ignore the stone and the option to stop by and read it from time to time. You seem to be equating this stone with court procedures and that equation doesn't exist.

quote: So let's see, for your argument, "law" is to be construed as narrowly as possible, and only apply Establishment Clause restrictions to one branch of the Federal government, (oh and let's not forget the Fourteenth Amendment's application to the states here), but now an administrative order to erect a prominent monument in a public area of a state government building, made by a senior official in connection executing his official duties is to be equated to any abstract "mention" of God by any politician?

First, the Constitution says all legislation begins in the House, then proceeds to the Senate, and then the President for his signature, veto, or inaction, so obviously if all legislation begins in the House, only one branch of the federal government matters...hence "Congress shall make no law". Second, applying the 14th Amendment to the 1st merely extends "Congress shall make no law" to "State legislatures shall make no law". No one made any law here...Third, sure, if he cannot have this monument on public property because of the establishment clause, then why should any member of Congress be allowed to enter public property and mention God or their religious beliefs? Should religious symbols be removed from Arlington?

quote: Sorry, I'm not playing those kind of definition games all night.

You mean like calling a chunk of stone an "administrative action" game?

quote: Maybe Ming or somebody's up for MP civ. Maybe if Congress calls it an "act" instead of a law, they can join the other two branches of government in immunity from the Establishment Clause?

If the "act" has the force of law, then it's a law. Even the Patriot Act is legislation and no one in Congress says otherwise.

quote: Historical monuments in parks do not have the same impact as an announced intention to make "acknowledging God" a part of the mission of the highest judicial court in a given jurisdiction.

Strange, the Alabama Constitution acknowledges God and the Declaration of Independence announces the clear intention that government exists to secure the inalienable rights granted us by our Creator - certainly a "divine" mission for government. But calling all those other monuments with religious sentiments "historical" is sophistry, they weren't "historical" when first placed on public property. So what changed to make them constitutional and not this monument?

quote: If there was a public park or mall outside the court building, and Judge Moore wanted his monument there, I'd have no problem with it. Hell, if he wanted it exactly where it is, but took the position that it relates to legal history and foundation, rather than proclaiming that he's going to make acknowledging God (as he interprets God) part of the mission of the Alabama Supreme Court, then the intent behind the action is squarely in violation of the Establishment Clause.

So his motive makes it unconstitutional? I thought it was his "administrative action"?

	22-08-2003 08:25									#128
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Moore did what he did in his role as an Officer of the Court, not as a private citizen. Just like a soldier in the service of the US does NOT have all the rights of a normal citizen in order to insure they provide the best service possible to the state, Officials of the Court are limited in what they can do, being members and agents of the state, becuase the state is to be impartial and equal to all citizens.

	22-08-2003 08:26									#129
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker Strange, the Alabama Constitution acknowledges God and the Declaration of Independence announces the clear intention that government exists to secure the inalienable rights granted us by our Creator - certainly a "divine" mission for government. But calling all those other monuments with religious sentiments "historical" is sophistry, they weren't "historical" when first placed on public property. So what changed to make them constitutional and not this monument?

Read my statement on Jefferson before you blabber some more.

	22-08-2003 08:27									#130
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quote: Originally posted by The diplomat No it is not in violation of the US Consitution!

YES IT IS. You're once again WILLFULLY IGNORING facts, in that it is UNCONSTITUTIONAL to display the Ten Commandments in a courthouse. The SCOTUS specifically ruled on this in 1980.

Moore is also acting illegally by refusing to obey the orders of the other state justices and the Federal judge.

quote: Of course, not. You are being preposterous as usual.

How is it a flawed analogy? It also entails a majority deciding to partake in an illegal and unconstitutional act. If you don't like that, I'd recommend stop being such a hypocrite.

quote: It is also designed to protect the majority from a tyranny of the minority as we are seeing here.

Except that the "majority" here (and this is actually a dubious claim) is advocating something that the Constitution prohibits, as has been shown to you time and time again, but you continue to ignore. Intellectual dishonesty = lying = a sin.

quote: I sure have a better understanding that you ever will.

Proof is in the pudding. You've not demonstrated the slightest bit of understanding, as your ludicrous attempt to use the 10th Ammendment shows.

	22-08-2003 08:29									#131
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Gepap, then why are all the other monuments with religious sentiments all over the country constitutional? They were placed by government officials too...

	22-08-2003 08:29									#132
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People keep bringing up te Establishment Clause but the 1st Amendment also says, "or prohibiting the free exercise thereof".

If the people of Alabama want the 10 Commandments displayed, then removing them is a clear violation of "or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" because it prevents them from exercising their religion as they see fit!

	22-08-2003 08:32									#133
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quote: Originally posted by The diplomat People keep bringing up te Establishment Clause but the 1st Amendment also says, "or prohibiting the free exercise thereof". If the people of Alabama want the 10 Commandments displayed, then removing them is a clear violation of "or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" because it prevents them from exercising their religion as they see fit!

For the upteenth time, people do not have a right to freely exercise their religion on GOVERNMENT PROPERTY, any moreso than you have a right to go and plant a cross inside a Mosque.

This is no different than if I just waltzed into a state courthouse and put up an altar to Baal in its rotunda. Are you saying I should be allowed to do that, since stopping me would violate my 1st Ammendment rights? Patently absurd.

And show me a precept of Judeo-Christianity that requires the Ten Commandments be displayed prominently in a public building as a term of faith.

	22-08-2003 08:34									#134
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker Gepap, then why are all the other monuments with religious sentiments all over the country constitutional? They were placed by government officials too...

They got grandfathered in from a time ago. And state officails no longer go aorund claiming how they are proof of their personal devotion to God. If judges started doing so, the ones near them might as well be taken down.

	22-08-2003 08:35									#135
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quote: Originally posted by The diplomat If the people of Alabama want the 10 Commandments displayed, then removing them is a clear violation of "or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" because it prevents them from exercising their religion as they see fit!

The people of Alabama did not elect him to put up a monument to the Ten Commandments. they elected him to enforce the law of the land. He has failed them.

	22-08-2003 08:40									#136
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov YES IT IS. You're once again WILLFULLY IGNORING facts, in that it is UNCONSTITUTIONAL to display the Ten Commandments in a courthouse. The SCOTUS specifically ruled on this in 1980.

If the 10 Commandments are unsconstitutional because they are religious, then answer me this:

How come Congress called for a national day of thanksgiving to God when the Constitution was passed?

How come President Washington repeatedly mnade reference to God during his speeches?

How come President Lincoln enacted a National day of Prayer and thanksgiving to God during the Civil War?

How come the Senate opens with prayer with a protestant chaplain?

The truth is that the 1st Amendment never meant that government should be 100% secular. It simply says that government cannot legislate religion.

	22-08-2003 08:43									#137
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quote: Originally posted by GePap The people of Alabama did not elect him to put up a monument to the Ten Commandments. they elected him to enforce the law of the land. He has failed them.

He was known as the "ten commandments judge". The constituents knew full well what is views on that subject were.

	22-08-2003 08:43									#138
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker MtG - You mean like calling a chunk of stone an "administrative action" game?

Do you have a reading comprehension problem?

Yeah, the "chunk of stone" just walked itself into the ****ing building all on it's own, and Moore had nothing to do with that.

He doesn't run the building as the senior officer of the court, he has no authority over state employees, that's why the other eight justices of the Alabama Supreme Court entered an order specifically overriding his previous directives.

	22-08-2003 08:44									#139
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Odin -

quote: Read my statement on Jefferson before you blabber some more.

You mean your opinion about how he'd feel?

quote: Thomas Jefferson would be appalled at this violation of the 1st Amendment. Jefferson's ue of "Creator" instead of "God" is a reflection of him as a deist and that all religions have a creation myth, so for the Ancient Greeks that would be the titan Prometheus.

Jefferson was a Christian and he said so himself. But what's your point? You think he'd object to a monument with religious sentiments on public property? Can you back that up?

	22-08-2003 08:46									#140
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How are any of the example you noted one of the ten commandments being displayed in a court-room?

quote: He was known as the "ten commandments judge". The constituents knew full well what is views on that subject were.

Did he state in his campaing that he would enact a monument to the etn commandments in the courtroom and then fight the fed over it? If not, he is not doing what he was elected to do, period.

	22-08-2003 08:53									#141
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quote: Originally posted by The diplomat If the 10 Commandments are unsconstitutional because they are religious, then answer me this: How come Congress called for a national day of thanksgiving to God when the Constitution was passed?

"God" was nondenominational, and it did not invoke a specific religious creed, which the Ten Commandments undeniably are.

quote: How come President Washington repeatedly mnade reference to God during his speeches?

Gee, since this has nothing to do with leaders making speeches...I have to wonder at the relevance. Officials are perfectly free to profess their belief, as has been stated time and again. They aren't allowed, however, to erect monuments to their beliefs on public property. This is a big no-brainer you seem to keep dodging.

quote: How come President Lincoln enacted a National day of Prayer and thanksgiving to God during the Civil War?

Presidents issue such proclamations (again, his was non-denominational) for an abundance of reasons, but since they don't carry any legal authority, it's a moot point. It is far different than enshrining specific religious doctrines in a government building.

quote: How come the Senate opens with prayer with a protestant chaplain?

The Senate rotates between all kinds of denominations for the prayer. They've used protestants, catholics, Native Americans, buddhists, etc. It does NOT use the prayer as an endorsement of any one faith, and in no way does it have any moral authority over the actions of the Senators (obviously).

quote: The truth is that the 1st Amendment never meant that government should be 100% secular. It simply says that government cannot legislate religion.

No, as SCOTUS has ruled, it also prohibits specific relgious doctrine from being enshrined in public spaces, as the Ten Commandments clearly are. You're confusing individuals in the government being allowed to profess their religion with a government official misusing his position of authority to impose a specific dogma on the public.

	22-08-2003 08:55									#142
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker Jefferson was a Christian and he said so himself. But what's your point? You think he'd object to a monument with religious sentiments on public property? Can you back that up?

Jefferson was not a Christian, he was a Deist, and he said that so himself, even writing the "Deist Bible." He believed Jesus was a great philosopher, but did not believe any of the metaphysical claims about him whatsoever.

	22-08-2003 08:57									#143
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker Odin - You mean your opinion about how he'd feel? Jefferson was a Christian and he said so himself. But what's your point? You think he'd object to a monument with religious sentiments on public property? Can you back that up?

He wasn't a Christian, he was a Deist, a person who belives that the diety is only a creator of the universe, not of all that other goop. He was a strong supporter of seperation of church and state. I know a lot more about him then you do. I admire him because we both have ADHD, and we are both liberals. I have reseached him a lot so STFU!

	22-08-2003 08:59									#144
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quote: Originally posted by The diplomat If the people of Alabama want the 10 Commandments displayed, then removing them is a clear violation of "or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" because it prevents them from exercising their religion as they see fit!

If they can demonstrate that erecting religious monuments in state buildings is an essential and mandated part of their religious practices, then they have an argument on a balancing issue between the Establishment Clause and Free Exercise clause.

	22-08-2003 08:59									#145
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Boris you took my line!

	22-08-2003 09:11									#146
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quote: Originally posted by Odin Boris you took my line!

Then don't be so slow.

For the record, saying things like "I know a lot more about him then you do" is a pretty obvious logical fallacy is just setting yourself up for getting burned...

	22-08-2003 09:15									#147
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MtG -

quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat Do you have a reading comprehension problem? Yeah, the "chunk of stone" just walked itself into the ****ing building all on it's own, and Moore had nothing to do with that. He doesn't run the building as the senior officer of the court, he has no authority over state employees, that's why the other eight justices of the Alabama Supreme Court entered an order specifically overriding his previous directives.

What state employee was directed by Moore to bring the stone in? What state employee was directed to place the stone? Where is this ruling by the other justices where they say the monument must be removed because a state employee was asked to help place the monument and why did they wait so long - ~ 2 years? Why did the legal proceedings over removing the stone begin with a lawsuit filed by others when according to you, the other justices wanted it removed because he used state employees? The stone was carved and placed by private contractors several hours after the day's business. While ignoring my refutation of most of your arguments (yeah I know, you couldn't be bothered and I'm sure it's all my fault), you decided to pick that bit out - poor choice. You're making stuff up and insults won't cover your tracks...

	22-08-2003 09:25									#148
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Odin & Boris -

quote: He wasn't a Christian, he was a Deist, a person who belives that the diety is only a creator of the universe, not of all that other goop. He was a strong supporter of seperation of church and state. I know a lot more about him then you do. I admire him because we both have ADHD, and we are both liberals. I have reseached him a lot so STFU!

Wrong, Jefferson described himself as a "primitive Christian", so apparently you didn't research him enough.

	22-08-2003 09:29									#149
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quote: For the record, saying things like "I know a lot more about him then you do" is a pretty obvious logical fallacy is just setting yourself up for getting burned...

Odin gets

	22-08-2003 09:39									#150
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker Odin & Boris - Wrong, Jefferson described himself as a "primitive Christian", so apparently you didn't research him enough.

No, that's not what he said:

"To the corruptions of Christianity I am, indeed, opposed; but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus himself. I am a Christian in the only sense in which he wished anyone to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines in preference of all others"

In other words: Not a metaphysical belief in Christianity, but a philosophical belief in what Jesus taught. That's why he removed all the supernatural occurances from his bible. He categorically did NOT ascribe to the belief that Jesus was divine:

From Thomas Jefferson’s Bible:
“The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as his father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter.”