10-09-2003 22:12									#31
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

*Finally* finished. I'm ready to try the one city challenge after this orgy of micromanagement. I probably spent 20+ hours playing this game, much of it devoted to reconstructing key buildings that had been destroyed by Metor Storm.

Won by conquest in May, 1419. Final score 7200. Save games and log file are attached.

Edit: Rex Little, I tried your file and it crashed for me also. A game editor shows the powergraph dipping to zero for all wizards around 1415. From what I read in the FAQ, this is an indication that memory has been corrupted. If you don't have an earlier save you can revert to, I think you're stuck.

Attachment: game1.zip
This has been downloaded 1 time(s).

Last edited by DaveV on 10-09-2003 at 22:36

	11-09-2003 08:06									#32
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I can't go back to an earlier save--there isn't one. I was too lazy to save every 5 years like Dave suggested; all I did was save to the same slot each time. So it's over. I'm going to assume I would have eventually won, since I was starting to bring over stacks of Golems (very magic-resistant) in addition to the Minotaurs, and Torin was to the point where he could take out almost any stack single-handed.

The dip in the powergraph doesn't mean memory was corrupted. It means there was a mana short. Or I suppose it could be that a bug in the game causes memory to be corrupted whenever there's a mana short. . .

	11-09-2003 13:23									#33
	Got spare money?

I finished too - by conquest in April 1419 :-) Dave, I beat you with one turn ;-) I played for fame else I could have finished a bit earlier. When I saw your post I had to start and end the war with Kali for 7 turns ... and I did it. 7 turns were enough to smash her.

Here are my final stats and the log:
Final stats: 243 fame, 643 townsfolk, 71 spells, 7848 total score

1406 - 1408
- I have conquered 3 other cities on my starting continent (two dwarven, one dark elven). Started developing them.
- Got druid and thief heroes. Cast heroism on the druid for greater spellcasting bonus.
- Made contact with Sssra and started researching water walking; Exchanged for Eldritch weapon and resurrection.
- Found the axe of the caster in a ruin.

1410 - 1411
- Exchanged for change terrain and summon hero.
- Banished Sssra with 8 water walking enduranced adamantium slingers.
- Summoned fang the Draconian
- Captured three more cities from Sssra (besides his capital)

1412
- Rakir the Beastmaster joined and started putting a good use to the axe of the caster. Found two more good artifacts - the Inquisitor and a decent armor.
- Summoned Tumu the Assasin. He is a legendary one too.
- Founded two dwarven cities on my starting continent to mine gold.
- Contacted Freya. Exchanged for nature's cures with her.

1413
- Banished Sssra again by conquering 3 more cities. He will try to return again.
- Freya casted Great Wasting. I am building many shamans to fight the corruption.
- Got a distant dwarven city on Myrror from diplomatic marriage.

1414
- Captured the troll city.
- Defeated Sssra (made peace for a while and exchanged 5 spells), and took 2 more spells from him when he was defeated.
- Now Myrror is entirely mine.
- Made contact with Kali and Ariel through a tower where I fought a storm giant. Rakir survived it though with medium injuries. Rakir and Fang seem to

be a very good combine for now.
- Exchanged some spells with Kali and Ariel. Spell blast was one of them.

1415
- Traded for Summon Champion and Healing.
- Banished Freya and took several cities from her (she does not have cracks call woohooo :-)
- Summoned Aerie the Illusionist
- Freya returned. I can't see her new capital yet.
- Founded a new dwarven city to the southeast of my capital (there is a gold and two coals there. I will trnansmute them if I get that spell).

1416
- Summoned Sir Harold (dropped the thief).

1417
- (May) Defeated Freya
- Banished Ariel

1418
- Defeated Ariel

1419
- Banished and defeated Kali (in April :-) and finally won ....

I am attaching the saves from my late game (from the early game they are in one of the previous posts.

Attachment: saves2.zip
This has been downloaded 1 time(s).

	11-09-2003 19:15									#34
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Rex, I tried your saved game there, and it crashed on me, too. IF I had torin and co. attack the city. HOWEVER, if you don't attack this turn and wit until next turn, you can attack. I didn't do this, since I either ended up retreating with all units exhausted, or losing. the fire wall is very hard on those stag beetles.

If you go that way, you probably want to get a thousand more mana with alchemy and spell blast her meteor storm, which she's about to finish.

	12-09-2003 11:57									#35
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Thanks for the tip, FB. I attacked the following turn like you said, and went through Ariel like Swiss cheese. After she returned, I attacked her new fortress and the same thing happened, so once again I waited a turn to banish her. Now she's back , but down to a couple of cities. She's toast.

I didn't blast her Meteor Storm; since I didn't find out about it on my own, I would have considered that a cheat. It disappeared on its own a couple of turns after she was banished, so no big deal.

Freya has lots of units running around, including at least one Great Drake, and I don't have Torin in position to roll her up yet, so she'll take awhile longer. Kali's a bit of a pest, but nothing serious.

By the way, while I thought I couldn't continue this game, I started a new one with Halflings on Myrror at Impossible level. Sss'ra trashed me early. I think it makes a big difference having adamantium at your starting city.

	15-09-2003 06:35									#36
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I lost track of how many times I crashed and reloaded, but I finally finished today. After mopping up Ariel, I finished Kali and finally Freya in 1437. Final score was 6936. I'm afraid I didn't make multiple saves along the way.

I found it interesting that Kali, who when I found her was confined to her home island and had only four cities, no nodes and no Myrrans to supply mana, was able to summon and support seven Demon Lords. Just how much of a boost does the AI get on Impossible?

	15-09-2003 11:13									#37
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I don't know wheather she had Infernal power or not but Cathedral + Infernal Power + Dark rituals = Lots of Power. I have seen such cities in the time of Bad moon event giving more than 60 power .....

BTW you can see my dwarven city built on the place of the troll one on myrror: 2 quorks, 1 crysx, 1 mithril with dwarven miner's guild = 36 power. If you add temple and alchemist guild you will be getting 42 power from that city which is not bad :-)

	15-09-2003 18:28									#38
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

I think I read somewhere that the AI gets a 4x boost on mana at impossible level, so bakalov's city with 36 power would be worth 144 for an AI.

Kali had only three cities, and no nodes, in my game, but she showed up in the F5 screen with a substantial powerbase. She definitely was doing Dark Rituals in all three cities.

bakalov - you beat me by more than one turn; I was lucky and defeated Ariel due to her having 0 mana when she still had ~10 cities left. It would have taken me quite a few more turns to mop up her remaining cities.

Lessons I learned from this game:
1) Concentrate more on spell skill in the early-to-mid game. I was hamstrung by a lack of casting skill in the late game.
2) I think I would have been better off with fewer, but more heavily enchanted, units.
3) I should have made a bigger effort to cast Just Cause as early as possible. It would have given me more cash and a better chance at some early heroes.
4) Don't let the AIs cast Meteor Storm !

	16-09-2003 12:03									#39
	Remove this text

Yes, that's all true .... here are some comments.
1) I like being archmage, and most of the time I am putting all my power into casting skill. This way I always have high casting skill and I am putting it to a good use - I never stop casting.
2) This is true too but you need Spell Lock - else you can send them only in nodes/ruins/caves/etc, and be careful for Djinns too ...
3) This is always the first thing for me to do :-) It helps boosting your taxes, the extra fame makes it easier to attract the heroes - and the fame reduces the army maintainance cost too. For sure the Just cause pays for itself. When I start with 4 life I am usually picking Just cause, Heroism and Healing. Endurance is cool too. You should not forget to keep your money high enough because a hero won't join if you do not have enough money.
4) Great way to do so is Detect Magic + Spell Blast. Spell Blast alone can do but you will have to keep on casting it every few turns.

Here are some other tips for everyone:
- Change terrain can boost the food production - use it on all of the deserts and swaps around your cities.
- A good build order for a city is (Builders hall -> Granary -> Smithy -> Marketplace -> Farmer's market -> Miner's guild -> Sawmill -> Forester's guild.
- Build dwarven cities by the minerals, and be sure to build miners guilds and marketplaces as soon as possible. This can give you a lot of cash or power.
- Micromanage only in the beginning. Once the things start going well stop doing it because it is no more worth the effort.
- Be sure to research and trade for spells that you will be using a lot and once you get them use them.
- Be sure to develop your cities before trying anything else.
- Cast at once heroism on the important heroes - Casters, Sages, Arms Masters, Legendary ones - in order to get greater benefit from thir special stat.
- Be sure to use to hit and defence roll boosters. These things make your units much harder.

I believe that you guys know all or almost all of this but if anyone finds something that he does not know it will be worth the posting.

	18-09-2003 16:36									#40
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

The mana drain attack (which is really cheesy) can often be put to good use against wizards with evil combat spells, especially if they're not channelers. Simply put, use a single spearman (may not be worth producing them if you don't have them as left-overs from early garrison forces) to attack any enemy stack. With a little luck they'll last a few turns and the enemy will spend quite a bit of mana compared to your loss. If he's already low on mana, this can be used completely blank him out before an important battle.

Besides, any stack that you attack will not move next turn, so it can also be used to obstruct a dangerous army until you get your defence in place.

	19-09-2003 09:54									#41
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Better yet, if you can send in a unit which either won't be attacked (flier against all walkers, or any unit against a walled city) or is fast enough to play keep-away, you can run Mana Drain for all 50 turns of the battle. That's 250 points off the enemy wizard's stash!

	19-09-2003 11:27									#42
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

You guys seem to talk about different things. Sore Loser seems to want to trick the enemy wizard into spending his mana before an important battle (which should be considered a cheat), and Rex Little talks about the Mana Leak spell which is ok in normal battles, but when used like described is a cheat too ;-)

	19-09-2003 15:14									#43
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by bakalov trick the enemy wizard into spending his mana before an important battle (which should be considered a cheat)...

Why in the hell all imaginative tactics are to be considered cheats?????
You could at this point have a bot play in your place....

The use of Chaff units is a smart one in all TBS strategy games I can think of, I don't see ANY reason why it should be frowned upon.

OK, in MoM a good player should have an edge, so "house rules" are set to avoid the most easy exploitment, like the artifact creating/breaking one, or conquering a Wizard Fortress before having conquered/razed all his cities.

But this one?
Sorry Bakalov, but you are just one more representaNt of the mainstream Apolyton attitude about game rules, which I declare since I came here playing SMAC 4 years ago: PURITANISM

	19-09-2003 17:41									#44
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

He he, sometimes I use such "cheats" or exploits too :-) But before I play I always decide if I will use them or not.

Once a player gets enough experience with such game he does not need these anymore. IMO it is ok in multiplayer games but is an exploit when used against an AI. Why do people restrict themselves to such rules as "One city challenge"? The answer is quite simple - because they want a bit more challenge. It is a matter of personal decision wheather to use exploits or not.

	22-09-2003 16:54									#45
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I agree with bakalov, though I wouldn't call any of this cheating. It's a question of game balance. Most games that aren't periodically rebalanced will have a number of over-powered strategies that dumb the game down after a while because it reduces the number of decisions made. I don't really distinguish between actual loopholes and mere spoilers, because the result is the same: Less challenges, less decisions to be made.

In MoM, this includes:

- 11 of any kind of spellbook (especially Life, IMO)
- The chaff attack, as described above (with or without Mana Leak)
- Creating hordes of any good missile unit
- Using Magic Spirits for exploration
- Choosing Rune Master and Artificer (even without recycling)

All of these strategies, and others like them, don't contribute much to my enjoyment of the game because they make it too easy. If I could figure out how to use that hex-editing method I'd rebalance all units and races to create more viable strats. For the same reasons, I have created my own rules.txt for Civ 2 to increase the number of viable strats and revitalize the game. If someone wants the game to remain stale and easy and enjoy it that way, then they're perfectly welcome to do so. I would appreciate it if they didn't call me a puritan, though.

	22-09-2003 17:46									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Sore Loser I agree with bakalov, though I wouldn't call any of this cheating.

That was my only gripe.
If you like to ride your bike backwards and handless, you're welcome. But don't call "cheater" any normal biker then.

	27-09-2003 19:23									#47
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

You know, it's been a fascinating experience to play this, since I have never even won on hard before, much less impossible, and I got to win this one. took me about twice as long as most of you, but I still won.

This was a chance to use a lot of those tricks I've heard about over the time we've been discussing MOM on these forums. I think it was the discussions at apolyton in the Other Games forum that induced me to obtain this great game.

We'll have to do it again sometime, I think. Maybe without such pretty access to adamantium right off. Then again, without that, I may not have won.

	27-09-2003 19:30									#48
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Sore Loser I agree with bakalov, though I wouldn't call any of this cheating. It's a question of game balance. Most games that aren't periodically rebalanced will have a number of over-powered strategies that dumb the game down after a while because it reduces the number of decisions made. I don't really distinguish between actual loopholes and mere spoilers, because the result is the same: Less challenges, less decisions to be made. In MoM, this includes: - 11 of any kind of spellbook (especially Life, IMO) - The chaff attack, as described above (with or without Mana Leak) - Creating hordes of any good missile unit - Using Magic Spirits for exploration - Choosing Rune Master and Artificer (even without recycling)

I actually like using these strategies. it allows me to be like a god. I suppose I like playing less for the challenge and more for being powerful enough to play like I want. that's why I don't play on the higher levels that much.

Another one I like is:

-choosing conjuror and sorcery mastery (or nature, or chaos mastery) to be able to summon units in battle for cheap.

	29-09-2003 11:33									#49
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Father Beast, if you get Sorcery Mastery and Conjurer, and then if you are lucky enough to obtain 13 Sorcery books, then you will be able to summon for free (i.e. zero mana) not only in combat but overland too. You can summon as much sky drakes as you want. Still you will have to pay mana to support them, but if they dissipate you can just re-summon them :-)

	29-09-2003 14:26									#50
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I gotta try that... I imagine there's lots of reloading at the nodes to try and get a book?

-Jam

	29-09-2003 16:52									#51
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Father Beast - I'd like to play another game like this, since I learned a lot playing the first one. I think it would be better if someone else set up the game, since I generally stick with the same spell picks, retorts, and races. Of course, I'm not really a very experienced player and might not be very successful if taken outside my comfort zone...

Edit: but please, not a Runemaster/Aritificer game! I've never been able to finish one of those; I quickly lose patience with creating and breaking magic items every turn.

Last edited by DaveV on 29-09-2003 at 17:35

	29-09-2003 18:17									#52
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

If you want something totally different try DDDD/Infernal Power/Myrran/Archmage/Alchemy with Trolls. If you want you can switch the Archmage and/or the Alchemy for books from the other realms.

	29-09-2003 19:10									#53
	Put an end to popups!

bakalov - I've never played with any death books. From a strictly personal morality point of view, I'd rather be fighting against demons than summoning them.

	30-09-2003 19:42									#54
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

If we play life again, then we will have a game that will be very similar to the first one. But if you insist try
LLLL Myrran Warlord Archmage +1 whatever you want, and take dwarves. May choose healing instead of endurance - heroism and just cause remain.

Death offers a different and more magical play style ... Anyway , it is you who will decide. I personally play death rarely.