22-08-2003 17:17									#1
	MoM comparison game Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

The idea: several people play out the game from the same start, and compare results. This is meant as a learning experience, not a race for highest score, fastest finish, or coolest hero. I've noticed from peoples' posts that there seems to be a lot of difference in styles, and I'd like some ideas on how to play differently and improve my game.

I've played this game to the end of 1405, and so far it looks very winnable. Difficulty is impossible, race halflings, alchemist, myrran, LLLLCSN.

Unzip the save game (it will overwrite your current game, SAVE9.GAM), and run. Save every 5 years, keep a log of significant events (conquering/founding cities, new techs, taking towers, nodes, etc.).

Attachment: save9.zip
This has been downloaded 16 time(s).

	22-08-2003 17:19									#2
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And here's a picture of the yummy start position.

Attachment: magic1.jpg
This has been downloaded 79 time(s).

	25-08-2003 03:56									#3
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

allright, I'm in. that adamantium looks sweeeeet.

Hey, aren't you the Lord of ICS? do you use that at all in MOM? seems like it would be hard with the building restrictions.

Warning, I've never even won a hard game, much less impossible. I probably won't be much value...

	26-08-2003 01:06									#4
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I have to continually suppress the urge to build cities in MoM. My experience indicates that it's much more cost-effective to capture cities than to build them from scratch.

I'm not yet convinced I'll be able to win this game (as of 1410), even though the start was nearly ideal, by my standards.

spoiler(highlight to read): ...of course, it hasn't helped that I've had to deal with a metor shower which Freya cast in 1407! I'm spending half my production replacing destroyed buildings, and my slingers are mostly cowering in cities and trying to heal.

	26-08-2003 02:13									#5
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I'm pretty sure I'm going to lose this game, I'm in about 1427, and I can't make any headway against my neighbor, plus I have the same problem your spoiler pointed out, except from at least 2 wizards.

If I can do your spoiler trick, I'll post my problem.

	26-08-2003 02:17									#6
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OK, I guess that's pretty simple

spoiler(highlight to read): I have both Freya and Sss'ra taking turns casting meteor shower, plus Freya also casts great wasting, and Sss'ra casts armageddon for a few turns now and then. I got disjunction a while back, but I can't cast it often enough to keep those off my back, much less the herb mastery and zombie mastery being cast.

	26-08-2003 18:39									#7
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I'll try this when I get a chance; won't be until at least Labor Day weekend as I have to go out of town. I'm curious: why did you start with halflings? Was it just to increase the challenge? Half the point of picking Myrran is to use one of the more powerful Myrran races.

	26-08-2003 20:37									#8
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Rex - Halflings are my favorite early-game race, and they can rule the Myrran races with little or no unrest penalty. I figured I could build some super-powerful hand-to-hand units in captured Myrran cities to back up my adamantium slingers. And I'll be lucky to finish by Labor Day weekend at the rate I play...

(now, could you do your Richard Nixon impression?)

	01-09-2003 00:17									#9
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I'm almost up to 1440, and I'm pretty sure I'm going to lose this game. should I still post my results up here?

Although my loss is almost assured, I feel like I've made some progress I never would have envisioned earlier on (I've knocked out a wizard), and I think it may be useful.

	01-09-2003 02:32									#10
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I got well into the game yesterday and today. As of the early 1420's I was doing pretty well. I'd banished the other wizard on Myrror and taken most of his cities; he came back, but I was a turn or two away from banishing him again. I'd gotten a few units over to Arcanus and met a couple of the neighbors. I had such a rich stream of slingers, hammerhands and minotaurs in production that my biggest problem was moving them all around.

And then the game crashed.

I'm going to restart from my last save, and save every turn from now on, but I'm afraid that I may never finish.

BTW, I never before realized how powerful adamantium slingers are. Awesome! One of them took out two sprites and an earth elemental single-handed.

	01-09-2003 12:29									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I'll try this game too :-) Sounds interesting ... I should have done it earlier if I was not on a vacation ;-)

Last edited by bakalov on 02-09-2003 at 11:30

	02-09-2003 04:23									#12
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I'm into the 1450's in this game, and I'm pretty sure I'm going to win. a result I would have found hard to believe even 10 years of game time before.

I may not be done by the end of labor day. but I'll see about posting my results as soon as I can.

the save every five years has meant that I have now saved over my original 1405 and 1410 saves. the 1415 too, I think.

	02-09-2003 10:01									#13
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Restarting the game worked; I've had one more crash since, but I restarted and played past it. I also had a stretch where some data corruption gave one of my heros a movement allowance of over 50 and attack and defense factors over 100, but he went back to normal on the next save.

It's 1428, and the game could go either way. I've wiped out the wizard who shared Myrror with me, and taken a few cities on Arcanus, but the wizards there are powerful enough that it's difficult to take the fight to them. Those stacks of slingers which were so devastating earlier don't do so well when they get hit with Flame Strike the first turn. Most likely it's going to be a long grind in any case.

	02-09-2003 11:39									#14
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I played only a little till now but there was a dwarven city with adamantium just north of my starting one. I plan to use their adamantium hammerhands too - everything that cannot be beatean by slingers can be beaten by hammerhands.

	02-09-2003 16:38									#15
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I noticed later on that there is a dwarven city with adamantium to the east and south, also.

	02-09-2003 18:22									#16
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Father Beast - if it's not too late, you could copy your old SAVEx.GAM files to a different name before overwriting them.

spoiler(highlight to read): I've just banished Sss'ra while reducing him to one city in July of 1414, and I think I can take out his last city before he can finish his Spell of Return. It seems like I'm ahead of other players in game time, but I've only been able to finish a few game turns in each of my last several one-hour game sessions. Lots of micromanagement in unit and structure (re)building, and the unit movement is also taking a lot of time.

	03-09-2003 01:48									#17
	Put an end to popups!

Sorry davev, I just finished the game and have already saved over the 1415 one.


Anyway,

I WON!!!!! ON IMPOSSIBLE!!!!

here's the log, it gets sketchy later on as events become less important to others in the game.

May 1400 -my starting swordsman and spearman conquer dwarftown Ailearth to the east.

May 1403 - B'shan the Dervish (noble) comes to work for me.

Nov 1403 - Zaldron (Sage, Caster) comes to work for me. I cast heroism on him by Mar 1404

Jun 1405 - Started building adamantium slingers.

Nov 1405 - Ariel has cast Just Cause.

Nov 1406 - Conquered ruins, got incarnation spell

Nov 1407 - 8 slingers take ruin with 2 death knights and 6 zombies

Jan 1408 - finished summoning Torin The Chosen. Cast heroism on him next turn

Oct 1408 - Torin and 8 slingers take nature node (first node) with 3 stone giants.

Feb 1409 - Conquered Asengard (dwarftown).

Jul 1410 - Mirndale reaches size 20. Conquered second node. Freya casts awareness.

Jun 1411 - Conquered Ebony (dark elves).

Aug 1411 - founded Cornberry.

Oct 1411 - Founded Ethridge

Aug 1412 - Took sorcery node (3 sky drakes, 3 storm giants) got 2 sorcery books.

May 1414 - took nature node (2 stone giants, 1 gorgon) with 4 slingers. got 1 nature book.

Mar 1415 - conquered Finnrock (dwarftown).

Oct 1415 - took nature node

Aug 1417 - founded Eastway

Nov 1417 - Founded Jollyville

Aug 1418 - Sss'ra casts meteor storm. first contact with Sss'ra

Oct 1419 - Kali casts Zombie Mastery

Dec 1419 - took Sss'ra city Carn Sul

Aug 1421 - Took Sss'ra city Tier

Jul 1422 - Sss'ra destroys Carn Sul
Mar 1425 - Sss'ra destroys Tier

Jul 1428 - Ariel and Sss'ra are both casting Armageddon

Jan 1429 - A volcano (raised by armageddon) destroys adamantium near Asengard. So much for my adamantium hammerhands.

Jun 1430 - Ariel maintains Great Wasting and Holy Arms. dropped meteor storm, though.

Jun 1431 - Ariel is casting Great Wasting, Armageddon, and Crusade.

May 1432 - Sss'ra destroys another town after I took it. his power keeps going down in the graph.

Feb 1433 - Meteor Storm again.

May 1434 - took a sorcery node Sss'ra was sitting on, but hadn't melded.

Nov 1434 - Torin makes Super Hero!

May 1437 - Torin and 8 slingers take Kempen. Sss'ra is banished.

Aug 1437 - Ariel starts casting Spell of Mastery. First contact with Ariel.

Sep 1437 - I spell blast Ariel's SOM.

Feb 1438 - Sss'ra casts spell of return.

May 1438 - Ariel starts on SOM again.

Jun 1438 - Torin takes Ebony. Sss'ra is banished again.

Jul 1438 - I spell Blast Ariels SOM. she starts casting it again in Aug. I spell blast it again in Sep.

Feb 1439 - Ariel starts casting SOM, again.

Mar 1439 - Sss'ra returns again.

Apr 1439 - I finish casting Suppress Magic.

Aug 1439 - I spell blast Ariel's SOM.

Jun 1441 - I finish casting Crusade

Oct 1441 - Took chaos node, got Infernal Power retort.

Mar 1442 - Torin Makes Demigod!

Jun 1442 - Torin takes Saradash. Sss'ra banished again.

Mar 1443 - Sss'ra's back. Why does he bother?

Jul 1444 - Torin takes Zorag. Sss'ra gone for good.

Mar 1444 - Finish researching Altar of Battle. start casting it on Mirndale.

May 1445 - Ariel starts SOM again.

Oct 1445 - I spell blast Ariel's SOM again.

Sep 1446 - Ariel starts casting SOM again.

Jun 1447 - I banish Freya. She'll be back. I finish casting meteor storm, and spell blast Ariel's SOM again.

Jan 1448 - Freya casts spell of return. Ariel starts casting SOM again.

Feb 1448 - I banish Freya again.

Oct 1448 - my Suppress Magic spell fizzles Freya's spell of return.

Dec 1448 - Ariel starts SOM again.

Mar 1449 - I take Freya's last town. She's gone.

Jul 1449 - I spell blast Ariel's SOM again.

Jul 1450 - cast inspirations on Mirndale. Now get one unit of Ultra Elite Adamantium Slingers per turn.

Mid 1452 - B'shan and Zaldron make demigod sometime during the year.

Jun 1453 - Ariel starts casting SOM.

Jul 1453 - I start Researching SOM.

Feb 1454 - Torin and a bunch of slingers take Ariel's Fortress!! She is no longer casting SOM

Aug 1454 - Ariel Returns.

Jun 1455 - I banish Ariel again.

Dec 1455 - Ariel returns again. I'm top dog on the power chart.

Jan 1456 - Ariel starts casting SOM again. What nerve!

Nov 1456 - I banish Ariel again.

Feb 1457 - I finish casting Charm Of Life

Jun 1457 - Ariel's spell of return fizzles.

Mar 1458 - I take Ariel's last city. she's gone. I also take Utica, banishing Kali.

May 1458 - Take last Kali city. I win. score: 5964

or alternately, taking a different last path from banishing Kali

Oct 1458 - Finish researching Spell of Mastery. Start casting it. Kali's return fizzles.

Oct 1459 - SPELL OF MASTERY

I win

	03-09-2003 02:10									#18
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Comments on my game:

an interesting bug: when you banish a wizard, one of the nice advantages is that they can't cast combat spells to support their troops. but when suppress magic fizzles the spell of return, they are somehow able to cast spells in combat again, but you can't see how much mana they have, and they have no fortress, so you can't banish them. you have to do in their last city in order to stop them...

Torin and slingers were my attack forces throughout the game. I ran into a real snag when all of a sudden my slingers were getting devastated by sss'ra's beastmen magicians. I ended up casting guardian wind and resist elements on all my slingers to counter this, and ended up continuing that tactic throughout the game. the big drawback is that one Disenchant Area spell in combat can undo several turns of casting spells on units.

Alchemy is a wonderful thing. I kept my skill high and ran a mana deficit for almost the entire game. this makes me able to do some nice combat spells. also made it able to cast my unit upgrade spells. just made up for it in gold.

the three nastiest global spells, in order, are Meteor Storm, Great Wasting, and Armageddon. Fortunately, the wizards seem disinclined to keep most of these up for more than a year or so.

While Just Cause helps keep your cities happy, Great Wasting has the opposite effect. those times when somebody casted Great Wasting the same turn somebody disjuncted my Just Cause, I could see my food production go Waaayy down.

This was a very pretty start. Halflings with Adamantium to start, and two dwarf towns with adamantium in decent reach. Having Just Cause and Heroism in your starting book can't be ignored, either.

Anytime I have a decent global enchantment, someone wants to disjunct it. I spell blasted a disjunction about 20 times for every time I spell blasted Spell Of Mastery. it was worth it every time, too. it is a great pain to recast these things.

Comments, anyone?

	03-09-2003 02:16									#19
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

BTW finishing stats.

323 fame. Alchemy, Infernal Power, and Myrran. NNSSCCLLLLLL

	03-09-2003 16:57									#20
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Father Beast - congratulations on your win! Interesting how differently things went in your game than mine. Nice move taking Ailearth so early; I waited until I had a stack of three slingers. You had much better luck with heroes than I; I've only had one hero appear through mid-1415. I've been keeping my hero at home for fear of Cracks Call, and doing the dirty work with adamantium slingers and hammerhands. I've only founded two cities (Dwarf cities by gold and game on the home continent), and one of those was destroyed in the outpost stage, by Meteor Storm, I guess.

Meteor Storm is a massive pain, and Freya has had it constantly in effect since 1408. Her days are numbered, though (Meteor Storm this, witch!).

	03-09-2003 18:26									#21
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Most of my heroes stayed home, casters mostly, to add to my skill.

Getting incarnation so early on was also quite the fortuitous event. I used to have another hero with pathfinding and scouting II (marcus), but he got killed while fighting Sss'ra. Torin actually got done in by Cracks Call at one point, but I resummoned him at the same experience level. Lost all the XP I'd made toward the next level, though.

Meteor storm is the biggest pain. I tried casting it myself at one poit, just to be a butt, and I then realized it affected my units out in the open, too, so I dispelled it. I think it's only useful while building up an army between wars, not during a campaign.

Meteor Storm is the only spell I would go out of my way to disjunct, once I got disjunction. I also remember failing to disjunct it several times, too.

So, did you finish yet, Davev? When do we see your log?

	03-09-2003 19:39									#22
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Not nearly finished yet: one down, three to go. At the rate this game has been progressing, I'd estimate it will be late next week before I finish. Freya is my next victim, and she has some 12,000 mana in the bank . Even so, with all of Myrror under control and the Plane Shift spell allowing me to drop killer stacks next to Freya's cities, I think it's just a matter of time now.

On disjuncting Meteor Storm: I calculate odds of just 18% for success. I plan instead to use my mana to take cities and nodes from Freya, hoping she'll run out of mana at some point. Once I banish her, her Meteor Storm goes into the void with her...

	05-09-2003 11:40									#23
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I am in 1408 now ... I have conquered the 3 other cities on my starting continent and the dwarven cities are somehow built up too (besides my capital). The adamantium one continues to develop while the other stuck with farmers market and is producing only food. I got the heroes Warlock and Thief till now, have 10 adamantium slingers, 5 adamantium swordsmen, 15 fame, the first node. From ruins I got Detect Magic and Axe of the Caster (the one with High Prayer :-). I exchanged some spells with Ssra (Detect Magic & Endurance for Eldritch Weapon and Resurrection)> Now I plan to pay a visit to him with some water walking troops.
I play with no reloading, I just made some saves for you guys to see how I am progressing and I am attaching them now.

Attachment: saves.zip
This has been downloaded 2 time(s).

Last edited by bakalov on 05-09-2003 at 13:05

	05-09-2003 13:14									#24
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Father Beast, for the second adamantium dwarven city - I havent found it yet, but I suppose there is a city below the eastern one because a rider attacked from that direction :-) My scouts will explore there soon ....

BTW I conquered the dwarven cities by a single adamantium slinger each by casting heroism during the combat.

	06-09-2003 17:04									#25
	Increase the size of your Attachments

That's right, the second adamantium dwarf city is on a subcontinent south of the isthmus where the city just to the east of your starting city is. also a couple of mean nodes down there. I got 2 sorcery books from one of them.

I never considered casting heroism in combat. my main combat spells were prayer, high prayer (once I got it), and flame strike (once I got that, it was devastating). I think I only got flame strike from a banished wizard, though.
When set to auto combat, Torin liked to heal the troops with him, or cast holy weapon.

	07-09-2003 03:07									#26
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Yeah, Flame Strike rules. I wish I had it. Instead, two of the opposing wizards have it and use it against me in every battle. It really cuts down on the effectiveness of those stacks of slingers and hammerhands.

On the bright side, they also waste spell points by using it against Torin, who's immune.

	08-09-2003 03:58									#27
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

flame strike can be a real pain, but I was casting Resist Elements on all my troops by the time it started raining on me. really extends the life of the troops. I originally was casting it to protect them from stacks of magicians, but it helps against all sorts of things.

On a side note, Torin like to heal my troops when on auto, but when I'm in control, I can't find Heal in the spell book....

	08-09-2003 11:37									#28
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Here is how my game continued: In 1411 I banished Sssra with 8 water walking enduranced adamantium slingers. His fortress was defended mainly by 5 basilisks, two priests, dwarven halberdiers and a spell-casting hero.

Before that I exchanged some spells with him and got change terrain and summon hero. I captured 4 of his cities, but lost 3 of my 8 slingers, started building halberdiers from his former capital. Already I have adamantium hammerhands traveling to reinforce the captured cities. I summoned a hero and Fang the Draconian appeared and he is traveling towards there too. Sssra is not returned (yet!) But his major cities are now mine, and he has only 5 or 6 now and I have 9. So the war with him goes well for now ....

Last edited by bakalov on 09-09-2003 at 11:51

	10-09-2003 10:04									#29
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I got past the first crash, and several others, by reloading from the last save. With Sss'ra defeated, I was slowly making headway on Arcanus, especially after I started bringing over stacks of minotaurs. They're highly magic-resistant, so the Flame Strikes and Call Lightnings weren't stopping them. After taking a few of Ariel and Freya's cities, in July 1431 I have a group headed by Torin ready to walk in and take Ariel's fortress. Torin is up to Grand Lord and has armor which gives him invulnerability, so it should be a cakewalk.

But the game's over. When I go into the city and the battle starts, the game crashes. Every time I reload the same thing happens. I even tried another computer (NT instead of 98) and it crashed there too. I have no choice but to give it up.

I'm going to attach the save file to this post. If you want, load it up and see if you can take Ariel's fortress without crashing. If you can, I'd appreciate if you'd save the game after the battle and post it back here. Maybe I can pick it up there and finish, or at least get farther.

Attachment: save2.zip
This has been downloaded 3 time(s).

	10-09-2003 11:49									#30
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I tried it but it crashed for me too. May be you can try to load an older save?

BTW my game goes very well :-) I am in 1415 and Myrror is all mine (no more Sssra), and I banished Freya and took several cities from her too. Her great wasting was dissolved and I will not allow such things to happen again because I have an operating detect magic and spell blast. From what I can see the other wizard's cities are quite corrupted and this will make my task even easier.

Last edited by bakalov on 10-09-2003 at 12:22