24-08-2003 09:11									#31
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He was also a prime mover for SDI, IIRC.

	24-08-2003 10:12									#32
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I liked the one book of his I read.

	24-08-2003 22:46									#33
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Never read Starsip Troopers, but they run the movie today here - how close it is to the book? Or is it just another hollywood "toast the insects" scifi?

	24-08-2003 22:50									#34
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Apparently it's a Hollywood 'adaptation', BeBro. I haven't read the book, but many Heinlein fans were pissed.

	24-08-2003 22:50									#35
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I have a strong desire to kill everyone involved with the making of the motion picture that dared to use the name of Heinlein's book.

That give you an idea of how close the two are?

	25-08-2003 00:35									#36
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quote: Originally posted by St Leo After reading Starship Troopers, I was seriously considering demanding that anyone who volunteers for the military have their right to vote taken from them.:P

Like to see you enforce it, Sidgames *****.

	25-08-2003 00:38									#37
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A Heinlein adaption that was much closer was The Puppet Masters. They ditched a couple of scenes which would have been killer (like Mary in the chair) for money reasons. But the overall thing retains the feel of the book.

Starship Troopers was done by a director who felt that the book was fascitic. It is a bit of a spoof. And has typical dumbing down and jocking up of a Hollywood picture.

	25-08-2003 00:56									#38
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RAH was wrong about the Moscow population. No huge foul there. He showed an intriguing set of methods for trying to calculate this thing. He was pretty right to suspect statistics out of Russia. Communist economic figures were notorious for inaccuracy. And you have to give him props for going and actually inspecting the thing that he hated (communism) in so much detail. Actually the trip turned him into a conservative. Before he was a Democrat.

	25-08-2003 01:07									#39
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quote: Originally posted by BeBro Never read Starsip Troopers, but they run the movie today here - how close it is to the book? Or is it just another hollywood "toast the insects" scifi?

It is not close to the book, it is very different. Book is good.

The movie is good, but think of it as ... a long music video. It has a naive feel to it, and parodic. Paul Verhoeven (sp?) said he did so in purpose and that his movie is a critique of something, I forgot what

Anyway, good movie and good book, but they are not similar.

	25-08-2003 01:39									#40
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I have read quite a bit of Heinlien, and the best way I can describe him is "militant libertarian." The one thing he hates more than anything else is rules and laws telling people what to do, and he has a very strong "might makes right" mentality.

He more or less bluntly states in "The moon is a harsh mistress" that the way to make an ideal society is to let people kill each other off until only about a fifth of the population is left.

He is a good writer, and sometimes very subtle. He is a good propagandist, and can worm his attitude and beliefs into the readers' minds if they are not careful. But they are still fun books to read, if you understand and avoid his attempted manipulation of your beliefs.

	25-08-2003 10:14									#41
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quote: Originally posted by TCO Like to see you enforce it, Sidgames *****.

	25-08-2003 13:50									#42
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Mindtricks that Heinlein plays?

I would have to cite To Sail beyond the Sunset, with just a little bit of eugenics, in trying to create the best people from the best breeding stock.;

He really is a good author, I will have to dig out some of his books again.

	25-08-2003 15:05									#43
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quote: Originally posted by st_swithin J. Michael Stracynski is still better than all of 'em put together (he's the guy who originally created "Babylon 5").

WORD

	26-08-2003 03:31									#44
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quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 Mindtricks that Heinlein plays?

I suppose all authors do it to an extent, but sometimes I feel that Heinlien is using his books as nothing more than a tool to advance his worldview. The good and heroic characters, and the ideal societies, always have the same beliefs and attitudes. Sometimes they overtly preach them, and sometimes it is just a subtle insinuation, hinting that we would have a perfect society of only we followed a certain set of beliefs.

	26-08-2003 03:36									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Richard Bruns I suppose all authors do it to an extent, but sometimes I feel that Heinlien is using his books as nothing more than a tool to advance his worldview. The good and heroic characters, and the ideal societies, always have the same beliefs and attitudes. Sometimes they overtly preach them, and sometimes it is just a subtle insinuation, hinting that we would have a perfect society of only we followed a certain set of beliefs.

He seems to overvalue courage and intelligence. Not much crying and ****-holding

	26-08-2003 04:14									#46
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quote: Originally posted by st_swithin J. Michael Stracynski is still better than all of 'em put together (he's the guy who originally created "Babylon 5").

I'm not sure. He writes Amazing Spider-Man now and he preaches a helluva lot. Really turns me off. You should have read the tripe of the "9/11 reflection" issue.

	26-08-2003 04:23									#47
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He's not a facist, he's a writer who writes about how society could be in different visions of the future. It's the whole point of science fiction.

He seems to mostly try to subvert traditional moral values which is especially interesting considering when he was writing. I think he's got a lot to say that's very relevant today about how to be open minded. Stranger in a Strange land is probably one of the most important books I've read from a personal point of view. I really liked Time Enough for Love a huge amount as well. The Moon is a Harsh Mistress was good, as was Starship Troopers but Stranger in a Strange land is brilliant and so damn subversive. I love it.

	26-08-2003 05:12									#48
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Maybe I should reread it. I personally like his adventure style books. The juveniles, Double Star, Puppet Masters, Door into Summer. You know...the 50's crap.

I think he did play with an idea occasionally. Don't know if he really advocates the various scheme in Stranger or Troopers or Moon. But that is not to say, he didn't have a worldview. I think it shows in his juveniles. Go Navy! Beat Army!

	26-08-2003 05:17									#49
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I personally found that the latter stories became too much of a game where the hero had no constraints. Everything from that brain transfer one on...except for Friday. In Friday, there was more dramatic tension. It was less of a galivanting around and more of a real person caught in a bad situation. A little less like a god having fun and more like a real person fighting, learning, living. I can care about that.

	26-08-2003 06:56									#50
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quote: Originally posted by TCO I personally found that the latter stories became too much of a game where the hero had no constraints. Everything from that brain transfer one on...except for Friday. In Friday, there was more dramatic tension. It was less of a galivanting around and more of a real person caught in a bad situation. A little less like a god having fun and more like a real person fighting, learning, living. I can care about that.

You nailed the problem with Heinlein's later work. The Number of the Beast-- in particular was completely deuces wild, no limits on what could happen. Friday was indeed the only book after that which read like vintage Heinlein--and vintage Heinlein is the best science fiction ever written.

Regarding the notion that Heinlein was a fascist, Spider Robinson (an excellent SF writer himself and a huge fan of Heinlein) wrote the following:

"This is the most popular Heinlein shibboleth in fandom, particularly among the young--and, of course, exclusively among the ignorant. I seldom bother to reply, but in this instance I am being paid. Dear sir or madam: kindly go to the library, look up the dictionary definition of fascism. For good measure, read the history of fascism, asking the librarian to help you with any big words. Then read the works of Robert Heinlein, which you plainly have not done yet. If out of 42 books you can produce one shred of evidence that Heinlein--or any of his protagonists--is a fascist, I'll eat my copy of Heinlein in Dimension."

	26-08-2003 19:56									#51
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Heinlein has good writing skills.

But he's politically one-dimensional, certainly misogynist, and, for long stretches, was doggedly formulaic.

I prefer Samuel Delaney for sheer unbounded creativity, Roger Zelazny for pure fun, Philip K. Dlck for altenative reality, and Robert Forward for "real science" sci-fi.

Asimov is very admirable, always had great concepts, very well thought-out, but never grabbed me with his actual writing.