23-08-2003 11:24									#1
	Turn 109, 390BC Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

edited by the Consuls and Ministers.

Status:
- Republic
- Researching Engineering (33) 1 scientist.
- 214 gold. +31 gpt
- Slider at 9/0/1 tax/sci/lux


Urgent questions & tasks
Final plans for PoA to plunge into the ocean West of Equilibrium. Warrior WB moving to join her.


Unit Movement & Actions:
To be edited by the MoW

Economy:
To be edited by MoI

WF:
Apolyton, should have 1 food left to grow, we can move a 2-1-2 grassland worked tile to the hills at WF #8 for this one turn. This will allow one other city to use it. Also, the Game can go to another city for this next turn, maybe Ming.
To be edited by MoI

Workers:
EVC, Dejon & MrWIA - All move 1-1 to HoD 6 (WF #3) and Mine (1 turn).
Dan & Gits - start clearing Big Bend 6 (WF #3), 6 turns.
Monkee & CalcII - Road (1 turn). Will move 9 next turn. This tile will be 1 turn mined, by the mining crew of EVC, Dejon and MrWIA fairly soon.
Squid & Horse - 2 turns left to clear Banana 6 (WF #3), tile will be done next turn and they will be frozen.
Mark & Otto - 2 turns left to clear Lux 3 (WF #4), tile will be done next turn and they will be frozen.

Rush - 2 turns left to Mine Poly 7 (WF #8), tile will be done next turn and he will be frozen.
Spink - Road Hisp 9 (WF #2). 2 turns
Panag - chop done, worker Frozen, he will start roading next turn.
Yin - at Alcohol 4 (WF #7), start mining.
New Worker From Karina ( I had thought that it was going to be built last turn, oh well), move 1-2-1 to Alcohol 4 (WF #7), joining Yin. Will mine next turn.
Yo - road done, worker Frozen.
Slave GF - Slaving away on that mountian Road - 6 turns left to go.


Diplomacy:
GCA: NAP in effect (to Turn 130).
CFC: NAP expired. New NAP proposed by CFC thru turn 117


Comment, please, many "plans" are just suggestions or ideas, not decisions already made.

---
Note: keypad directions used for all except WF orders.

Discussion and basic reporting to follow. See the topped thread for comprehensive results

Last edited by E_T on 24-08-2003 at 11:59

	24-08-2003 01:12									#2
	Remove this text

Just bringing it to everyone's attention in it's own post, we will need at least one Settler in order to invade. Whether that's 10 or 15 turns, we'll need one built and 2 of Cuido the turn we attack.

	24-08-2003 04:09									#3
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Depending on how we want to do it, we could have a settler out of Bananatopia about every 6 or 8 turns.

	24-08-2003 04:32									#4
	Got spare money?

Our tax collectors are doing a great job! Keep the money flowing from the people to the military forces!

	24-08-2003 05:19									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Depending on how we want to do it, we could have a settler out of Bananatopia about every 6 or 8 turns.

Having to get a Settler from somewhere is bad enough, I don't think we want to routinely sqeeze population from Bananatopia.

Beyond size 7 we may have to use Workers to increase Bananatopia's population anyways, so getting one from there may be best.

	24-08-2003 08:39									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Trip Having to get a Settler from somewhere is bad enough, I don't think we want to routinely sqeeze population from Bananatopia.

Why? It is the best pump we have at the moment.

	24-08-2003 11:21									#7
	Inflate your Upload Space

Yes, it is. We need another Granery if you want to change that. But, there's also the fact that we do not have any other bonus food tiles near us now. Maybe we can irrigate the Game tile now to get an even better bonus....

I'm thinking HoD or BB would be a good spot for another Granery.

	24-08-2003 11:24									#8
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I think that we can squeeze a settler from Poly, but I have to get to hte specifics of it. Something to do for tomorrow. We can also look at Banana, but we should try to let it's pop get up some, too. It will be a balancing act and I'm going to be getting my juggling hat ready to go...

Also, I have been looking at several options for Tripoli, of builds vs Growth during the GA. I'll post the options and specifics tomorrow in the Beltway Thread.

E_T

	24-08-2003 11:38									#9
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Granery would go best in Lux, would it not? Low corruption (good shields for settler production) and we intend to let it grow. Give it 2 or 3 irrigated tiles and it can do 4 or 6 turn settlers (gold needed for 4 turn settlers).

As for now, Poly will be working a hill every turn, yes? That means best case, if gets +3 fpt if it hogs the game all the time. If however...

We trade the game between Poly and Nana on a 2 on - 2 off scheme. Nana gets more food than she needs for 6 or 8 turn settlers. Poly can pop a worker whenever she gets to 6 pop with a full food box.

Poly can also maintain 10spt out of GA using only one bonus grass. 15 in GA. Settlers from Poly will disrupt this, unless we add workers to get settlers. That is a waste of shields (settler costs 40 shields, not 30).

	24-08-2003 12:02									#10
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Why? It is the best pump we have at the moment.

Because when ye old time comes, it has the most potential of any city we have. More pop = more power. Getting above size 7 will be a chore without adding Workers.

	24-08-2003 12:05									#11
	Put an end to popups!

The Granary in Lux isn't really an option, for it still has no real production and would (currently) take 49 turns to build. The GA would be over before we get any results from it.

I say (and I haven't examined this closely yet) that a cat/worker mix for it's builds will be sufficient for now.

As for it's corruption, it's running at 25 to 27%, that isn't that all good for a build like a granary, at this point in time.

E_T

	24-08-2003 12:06									#12
	Tired of ads?

Yes, and more pop (settlers) is most appropriately produced in the city that can grow in 3 or 4 turns, regularly. You do not add workers to your pop pumps.

	24-08-2003 12:10									#13
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quote: Originally posted by E_T The Granary in Lux isn't really an option, for it still has no real production and would (currently) take 49 turns to build. The GA would be over before we get any results from it.

There is one bonus tile exposed now. More I bet when the other three come down.

With two mined, bonus grass, we should get a granery in 10. That makes Lux an ideal replacement for Nana as a pump if we irrigate a tile or 3.

Don't forget, we are letting it grow for tax purposes. Why not go all the way with that, and let it become a pump?

	24-08-2003 12:12									#14
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Lux is/was a temp city; I do not want to build a granery there.

If we do not build one elsewhere, in a permanent location, then Apolyton/Banana are our only logical choices, unless we want to wait for one of our outlying cities to grow large enough, then rush one out with gold.

	24-08-2003 12:16									#15
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Why no granery if it can pump 4 or 6 or 8 settlers instead of 2 or 3 or 4?

Don't focus so much on the shields for the granery as the pop for new cities. We will need many new cities. Lux can build them for us. That is the whole idea of a camp. they do useful things while they live, then they are gone. We sacrifice 1 settler in shields to gain 3 or 4 more settlers over the long haul.

BTW, we have graneries in Nana and Poly. But we need Poly for military, and Nana could be using the granery and the barracks alternating. Merc-Settler-merc-Settler, until Lux can take over. then Nana can be freed.

That is what I would do.

	24-08-2003 12:32									#16
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

The thing about building the Granery in Lux is that it would take forever, likely 20 turns from now to get it done. It grows to size 3 in 3 turns (from next turn); if we can rush buy the Granery before it grows to size 4, and thus gives us a half full box then, I would say it would be a good choice as far as putting out a good 6-8 settlers for us till it becomes not so usefull anymore. I would extimate that it would cost around 140 gold to rush it right before it grows to size 4, if we mine and let Lux use that new shielded tile that appeared WF#1 of BB.

If we let Lux build this Granery, with no help from gold, we'll be waiting for too long.

	24-08-2003 12:59									#17
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

We can build a granery in 10 turns if we have 6 shields. That is 2 bonus grass, and 1 grass mined.

	24-08-2003 13:05									#18
	Remove this text

It takes time to make good things. It always does. People are very happy when they come out of the oven though, usually.

	24-08-2003 13:26									#19
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Why do we need a Settler to invade ?? This is the first time I see that mentioned.

(I suspect to gain movement on roads that we should include in our territory...)

Funny. I've seen different people saying that a granary in Lux takes:

• 10 turns (NYE)
  
• 20 turns (BF)
  
• 49 turns (ET)
  

	24-08-2003 13:39									#20
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Good questions BFM.

A settler is needed to stave in the borders of Elucidium to allow the advace of AGA to adjacent on turn 1 of war.

The number of turns from now to build a granery in Lux are more than 10 and less than 49. With 5spt it would be 12, but Lux is not at 5spt at this time. At 1spt it would be 60, but it will not stay at 1spt if we let it grow.

Already 1 bonus grass pokes its head out of the jungle, add a second and some mines...

A granery in Lux is not a pipe dream. Any and all who tune in should feel free to do the math themselves. Keep in mind that a granery pays for itself very quickly in extra settlers. 2 or 3 or 5 turn growth is heads and shoulders above 4 or 6 or 10 turn growth. Just about double, by my reckoning.

	24-08-2003 13:40									#21
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither We can build a granery in 10 turns if we have 6 shields. That is 2 bonus grass, and 1 grass mined.

There's two bonus grasslands in its reach. One is unimproved (that will take time) the other, while improved, is being used exclusively by Mingapulco, to keep that 10 SPT clear going (unless you want to sacrafice growth in Ming).

It will be a few turns till we can even get another tile cleared, let alone improved. So, 10 turns from now is out of the question unless we were to rush it. We'd have 9 turns from the next to rush it, if we continue to work the irrigated tile. That's 2 turns before it grows to size 4. That would be a perfect time to rush it. If we can mine that shielded tile now we can cut the cost of the rush to less than 100 gold; more likely 40-60 gold.

	24-08-2003 13:44									#22
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

You are correct, BF. It will be longer than 10 from now. I am speaking of when the jungle is cleared, and am trying to come up with a second settler pump, to take pressure off of Nana in the future.

The future, that is what this is about.

	24-08-2003 20:20									#23
	Increase Your PM Length

Yes, it's the future and an investment worth considering; even for a 'temp city'. To get the most out of the investment (shields) we should make sure we have that Granery in place before Lux grows from 3 to 4. Then we can definately take Apolyton off pump duty and only use Banana when neccessary. The reason I say take Apolyton off is because it has many more hill tiles to work and thus we can control its growth much easier than Banana without using builds of workers/setlers.

	25-08-2003 09:23									#24
	Support Apolyton

The thing is, we can still use this city as a worker pump and use the others to provide the settlers

Have a city that just reached size 6. Size 5 is optimal for SPT for the GA/War effort. Have the city build a settler and then add a worker to it to bring it back to size 5

Especially, Banana and Poly can quickly recharge, with the Game tile, 3 turns to grow (if not working Hills) is definately a good thing to take advantage of.

As for Banana, if the city is running at size 7, adding 2 worker before the settler will make sure that we don;t lose the food that has been built up in the food box, when we build the settler.

the thing is, Using 1 city to pump out settlers can be a bit inefficent, wereas, you can have all of your maxed pop cities produce 1 when it's about to max our the food box, and then add a worker. Having Lux as a worker pump would make this a really workable solution.

E_T

	25-08-2003 10:37									#25
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Status:
- Republic
- Researching Engineering (33) 1 scientist.
- 214 gold. +30 gpt (WF changes add 2gpt)
- Slider at 9/0/1 tax/sci/lux

Unit Movement & Actions:

All units in Army Group A/B (AGA/B) to remain (fortified) on the road tile 8 of Cuido where they can maintain the maximum mobility to deal with a GCA threat.

AGA/B contains: 3 vet Horseman, 9 vet Swordsmen (4 moving out for upgrades), 1 vet NM, 1 elite Warrior, 1 regular Warrior (15 units)

G01 III. Princess moves 8 7 8
G02 XI. Expedition [Flash, jagjef] moves 2 3 3 then uses FORTIFY ALL trick with the Swordsmen.

S03 XII. E_T moves 9 8 to Karina 8 ready for upgrade
S04 XIII. Arnelos moves 9 8 to Karina 8 ready for upgrade
S05 II. Hack moves 2 (towards Equilibrium)
S06 XIV. Theseus moves 9 8 to Karina 8 ready for upgrade
S11 XV. PanzerSwordsman moves 9 8 to Karina 8 ready for upgrade

N01 X. MerZenary moves 3
N04 V. Togas moves 4 4 towards Equilbrium to either defend the city or a future silk colony
N05 VII. Enamel moves 8
N07 IX. Roadcage moves 1 2 1 to AGA
N08 VIII. New Merc in Poly named "Vlad" and moves 1 1 1 towards stack AGA

W02 VI. BigFree moves 9 (to avoid breaking the NAP)
W07 I. WhiteBandit moves 6 to Equilibrium
W12 IV. WWNN moves 9 (avoiding NAP break)

Economy:

WF:

Poly start 5-12-17-18-19 change to 4-8-12-18-19
Banana start 1-2-6-7-8-20 Change to 1-2-6-7-8-19
Incensity start 5-6-7-14 NC
Ming start 2-3-9-10-15 Change build to MI, change WF to 2-3-8-10-15
Tripoli start 17-19-20 NC
Equilibrium start a scientist NC
Alcohol start 1 change build to Cat, no WF changes
Hispanica start 1-3-9 change to 3-5-12
Possumopolis start 14 NC
Lux start 1-2 Change to 8-13
Big Bend start 8-10 NC
Karina start 9 change build to Catapult, change WF to 3.
HoD start 10-11 change to 3-11
BFC start 6-8 NC

Italics= to be discussed

Workers:

EVC, Dejon & MrWIA - All move 1-1 to HoD 6 (WF #3) and Mine (1 turn).
Dan & Gits - start clearing Big Bend 6 (WF #3), 6 turns.
Monkee & CalcII - Road (1 turn). Will move 9 next turn. This tile will be 1 turn mined, by the mining crew of EVC, Dejon and MrWIA fairly soon.
Squid & Horse - 2 turns left to clear Banana 6 (WF #3), tile will be done next turn and they will be frozen.
Mark & Otto - 2 turns left to clear Lux 3 (WF #4), tile will be done next turn and they will be frozen.

Rush - 2 turns left to Mine Poly 7 (WF #8), tile will be done next turn and he will be frozen.
Spink - Road Hisp 9 (WF #2). 2 turns
Panag - chop done, worker Frozen, he will start roading next turn.
Yin - at Alcohol 4 (WF #7), start mining.
New Worker From Karina ( I had thought that it was going to be built last turn, oh well), move 1-2-4 to Alcohol 4 (WF #7), joining Yin. Will mine next turn.
Yo - road done, worker Frozen.
Slave GF - Slaving away on that mountian Road - 6 turns left to go.


Diplomacy:
GCA: NAP in effect (to Turn 130).
CFC: NAP expired. New NAP proposed by CFC thru turn 117

Last edited by MrWhereItsAt on 25-08-2003 at 11:16

	25-08-2003 10:56									#26
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Map

Galleys:



Demographics:

	25-08-2003 11:04									#27
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

GNP and MFG:

155+, 125 (us), 109, 44, 39, 20, 2
?, 61+, 50 (us), 31, 26, 18, ?

Notice how a team jumped 45+ GNP instantaneously. That means GWT is a Republic now. In other news, Grenouille is dead.

	25-08-2003 11:20									#28
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After:

	26-08-2003 12:31									#29
	Support Apolyton

Observations (hoping to beat Rush to it):

• We are now #2 with 3% in Literacy. Odd.
  
• Arhus has stopped growing. Either their food box is full or they had to assign a Laborer as a Specialist.
  
• Trip - how low is the lowest team in MFG? You should be able to provide a maximum for that value.
  
• The lowest team has 2 GNP??
  

	26-08-2003 12:49									#30
	Inflate your Upload Space

The lowest team would have been Grenouille. There were not dead on this turn. I'm assuming that Trip is reporting news from 1BC.