 |
| |
|
|
Albert Speer
|
|
Puerile Polemic
Mar 1999
time: 00:30
|
|
sometimes i get the feeling that during the height of jim crow, nobody gave a damn if two people of different races were married but now people go on about how big a deal it is... talking about how its a good thing and how a lot of people dont approve and all that bullshit...
The show I Love Lucy had a white woman married to a hispanic man... have the same arrangement on a sitcom today and you'd have episode after episode of culture clash, random characters not approving, etc. and have reviewers and watchers go on and on about how good (or bad) it is that two people of different races are shown together on television... but back in the racially incendiary 50's, it dont seem like the inter-racial relationship on I Love Lucy raised a single eye-brow... its like people didn't care back then...
and take the Shakespeare play of Othello which has been bastardized into a story about inter-racial relationships... now for anyone who actually read Othello, its clear the story is about an otherwise exemplory and loyal soldier being passed over for a promotion because he is only a commoner and his attempt at revenge... if shakespeare was trying to put social commentary into the play, it was about the plight of hard-working commoners who could never achieve what a bookish aristocrat could... yet somehow, Othello is perverted into a story of inter-racial marriage...
whats the oddest thing is Othello wouldn't even be black! The Arab or Berber Othello marrying the Italian Desdemona... that sure is a great difference! now you might say it's still two different ethnicities that hardly got along in Shakespeare's time... but Othello's ethnicity is only mentioned once or twice in the play, most notably in the line by a jealous character trying to incite Desdemona's father to break up the marriage (Which it should be noted he never does and soon embraces Othello), "The old black ram is topping your white ewe." Othello's darker skin is never mentioned again in the entire play...
and how Othello has been turned into a story of inter-racial marriage and the conflicts with society that that supposedly results in from such a story i just described i have no idea... its just the result of this odd obsession of inter-racial relationships that it really seemed like people took as everyday decades and centuries ago...
(Albert Speer's ex-girlfriend was black and he thanks god that no one ever mentioned anything about inter-racial **** or he would've gone crazy on someone hollering, "we're both humans!")
thanks
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Jon Miller
|
|
a lot of epopel find it sexy as seen by all the interracial portn out ther
Jon Miller
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Albert Speer
|
|
Puerile Polemic
Mar 1999
time: 00:30
|
|
Oerdin:
Moors are black?! How the hell did black people get to Spain? Any historian will tell you that the muslims who invaded Spain in 711 were mostly berbers with some Arabs among the leaders... Spain at the time was a mixture of the original Celtic inhabitants mixed with some Phoenician and Roman blood from ancient times and most recently mixed with Visigothic and Vandal blood... therefore, Moors couldn't possibly be black in our understanding of the word... i mean how the hell would an entire black-skinned people ever get that far north in that time period?
if you notice other Shakespeare references or references from other northern european sources from the time to Arabs and Turks, they were also referred to with the word 'black'... just means darker not Negro
|
|
| |
|
| |
|
|
|
Shi Huangdi
|
 |
Pittsburgh, PA
Apr 1999
time: 00:30
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Spiffor
I am under the impression that the US goes further and further from the "metling pot" model towards the "salad bowl" model. This means, communities are more and more closed to each other for social / emotional or cultural relations (even though business relations continue as usual).
I can be wrong with this impression though. However, should it be true, it would explain why interracial relationships become increasingly "abnormal", and as such the interracial part gets more attention. |
Well, inside the races themselves, that is mostly true. The Italians, Anglos, Irish, Germans, etc. have pretty much melded into one big "White". The Dominicans, Mexicans, Central Americans, etc. also tend to be grouped together as "Hispanic". However the races themselves hardly seem to be assimilating that well.
If I am not mistaken is a little similar in France, where the traditional "French" ethnic groups such as Bretons, Auverenge, etc. meld into a "French identity" where as the Arabs are not assimilating as well?
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Albert Speer
|
|
Puerile Polemic
Mar 1999
time: 00:30
|
|
and more importantly, even if the moors were black, where the hell did all the black people that should be in Morroco and Algeria go?
you may be confusing Moors with the new Moors who are black americans of a sect of Islam and call themselves the moors.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Albert Speer
|
|
Puerile Polemic
Mar 1999
time: 00:30
|
|
Imran:
I was exaggerating to make a point... yes, obviously they was lynching black males for fooling around with white women so inter-racial **** wasn't being seen too highly... but that still don't explain why I Love Lucy's inter-racial relationship didn't seem to get no attention and how Othello has been recently turned into an inter-racial story.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Buck Birdseed
|
 |
Khoon Ki Pyasi Dayan (1988)
Nov 2000
time: 05:30
|
|
I'm not sure you're right about marriages or about Othello (isn't he meant to be a Moor?) but one trend that I was thinking about last week is how you rarely see mixed-race bands in the US any more. I mean, in the early 1960s white and black performers were hardly allowed on stage together but nevertheless you had lots of bands with white and black members working together in the studios, writing songs together, producing each other, running each others record companies. Look at Booker T and the MGs- two white members, two black members, all equally a part of the songwriting process, all writing some of the songs. Where are all the great white Hip-Hop producers? Where are all the black rock guitarists? I'm not averse to a lot of Black people entering R&B and Hip-Hop (it is the greatest genre on earth after all) but why is it so non-mixed?
One theory of course is that it's got something to do with politics, with black people wanting to do their own thing, be black and proud. In that way I can understand it, but it seems to have spilled over into crass marketing. When garage muppet Craig David toured the United States the record company wanted him to fire his white guitarist, because they thought US audiences would respond negatively. Why?
I'm ardently leftist politically yet I, too, don't think creative acts and politics should be excessively mixed. Disco, whatever else you may think of it, at least was a high-point in integration, with white people, black people, gays, lesbians and straights working together to create simple party music, no-one denying the cultural contribution each party could bring yet no-one excessively emphasising it either.
I love multi-culturalism, and acknowledge groups' differences from each other, whether they're sexual, cultural, gendered or whatever. However, in order to create a stable, just society where we're respectful of each other we need to work together, in solidarity, and allow the borders to float should the members so chose. It's vital to keep the balance between one extreme of capitulating to certain strong groups and the other to deny the existence of any groups at all, both of which lead to opression and the voiceless unfreedom of large parts of society.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Albert Speer
|
|
Puerile Polemic
Mar 1999
time: 00:30
|
|
and yet, spiffor, according to an article by National Geographic Magazine about the Moors, they were described as an Arab and Berber population...
and berber contact with west africa was largely one-sided (ie- the berber destruction of Songhai)... are you saying that the entire Moor population of several million that lived in spain and north africa was from west africa? and that somehow this entire population vanished without a trace after the 16th and 17th centuries?
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Albert Speer
|
|
Puerile Polemic
Mar 1999
time: 00:30
|
|
Buck:
quote:
Where are all the great white Hip-Hop producers? |
if all you listen to is Timbaland, i wouldn't blame you for not knowing about them but white people (the stereotype being jewish people) have produced for rappers since the 80's... even today, white producers like Alchemist and Joe Kuleszynski have produced plenty of hit singles... if you're at all familiar with rapper Joe Budden, just about all the songs on his recent album were produced by Kuleszynski.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Albert Speer
|
|
Puerile Polemic
Mar 1999
time: 00:30
|
|
Oerdin:
no... look it up anywhere... the Moors invaded in 711... Berber militant religious revivals (with strange names that i cant quite remember like Almohads or something) resulted in massive berber invasions of spain in El Cid's time...
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Albert Speer
|
|
Puerile Polemic
Mar 1999
time: 00:30
|
|
Spiffor:
do you know if these Maures are known as Taureg in English?
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Albert Speer
|
|
Puerile Polemic
Mar 1999
time: 00:30
|
|
exactly, Cockney... all through the middle ages and rennaisance, in writings, northern europeans described Arabs, Turks, and all other muslims as black.
and also, like you said, Othello's ethnicity was of no concern to shakespeare. it was mentioned barely once or twice... today, though, everyone seems to think inter-racial relationship is the whole point of Othello.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
C0ckney
|
|
Big Up The Macedonian Massive
Apr 2000
time: 05:30
|
|
oerdin, or they could have been berbers, some of whom (according to roman records) also had blonde hair and blue eyes. but again i'm not on about technical definitions. in shakespeare's time in most of europe all muslims apart from turks could be and were described as moors, in the same way muslims often called europeans 'franks'. so you can't tell anything definate about race from the use of the word 'moor' in a 16th century work.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Albert Speer
|
|
Puerile Polemic
Mar 1999
time: 00:30
|
|
Tauregs live roughly in Mauritania and have black skin but more caucasion facial features so your Maures seems to equate to them. though another thing is the issue of migrations that probably meant population locations in shakespeare's time were different than today.
nevertheless, history books i've read consistantly describe the moors as a mixed population of arabs and berbers... and logically, no significant numbers of negros would have gotten to spain let alone conquer all of spain and be the main population in spain and north africa for centuries... the idea of moors as blacks stems from their darkness as compared to northern europeans as well as the added confusion of some black muslims calling themselves moors since the 1960's.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Albert Speer
|
|
Puerile Polemic
Mar 1999
time: 00:30
|
|
and in case people forgot, what race Othello is wasn't the point of this thread... even if he was Chinese, Shakespeare never intended Othello to be a race play yet it is now portrayed as such...
and why did I Love Lucy get little attention for its inter-racial relationship back in the 50's but now i think we can all agree it would be blown up ridiculously
|
|
| |
All times are GMT. The time now is 05:30.
Apolyton Time is 00:30. |
top of page
|
| archivepost |
|
Forum Rules:
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
|
HTML code is ON
vB code is ON
Smilies are ON
[IMG] code is ON
|
|
|
|
|
|
23-08-2003 22:08
What are you an utter moron?! The plethora of anti-miscegenation laws, which had to be struck down by the Supreme Court (Loving v. Virginia) should show how dumb that statement is.
. i agree with AS about the moors. however the term is used today, in shakespeare's time the word moor could be used to describe any muslim, whether a berber, arab or black. portuguese records talk about moroccan 'moors' with blonde hair and blue eyes, hardly likely to be black are they! so he could have been talking about an arab, a berber, a negro or any other muslim, we don't know. probably because it's besides the point in othello.
|