08-09-2003 19:20									#331
	Full PM-box? Change here!

At least half of the posters will desagree, but I want to declare that I am bored to hear * it is only a game*, in so many different contexts. This sentence a no meaning whatsoever for a real gamer. What is a real gamer? Somebody who, whatever is the game and whoever is the opponent, plays for the win. He cant prevent himself from totally and naturally concentrating on the game he is playing, and at this very moment the game IS the life. He will not be distracted by anything except one : accusation of cheating. That explains that real gamers will normally not be very interested in collateral activities such as trash talking that they considered as not part of the game. But when the trash talking comes to subjects like honor and fairness, the breaching of which could be seen as a licit cheating, they can not see the humour, and react accordingly.

In real life, the aristocratic behaviour was to look like being serious on frivole matters, and being frivole on serious matters. Are not the Strategy Guys the artistocrats of Apolyton ?

	09-09-2003 00:07									#332
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

mmm nice turn of conversation... I will chime in.
For me this is not "just a game"

What is PTWDG for me?

It is an experience centered around my favorate game.
Breaking it down..

• It is a game, Win or loose, it is just a game. I want to win.
  
• It is my free time. I haven't played my own games for months and am not participating because I have absolutly no free time. I am writing this at work to escape some boredom. I want my free time to be enjoyable
  
• It is expedature of energy. The energy I send out reflects back from all the other participants (on and off my team). I personally am aware of the quality of energy I send out and recieve. I seek to send out good energy and only want good energy coming back at me.
  
• It is an experience. RL supplies a plenthora of confrontational and negative experiences that we must transform to positive. I am not seeking this in my recreation. I seek only enlightening and pleasurable experiences while shunning negative ones (as a general rule).
  
• It is an education. I seek to learn how the game works (including diplomacy for MP) and I am all too aware of the seedy underbelly of human relationships, so I seek a constructive enviornment to learn my CIV 3 MP lessons.
  
• It is networking. We connect and make contact with each other. I seek to connect with people who I feel are worthwhile
  knowing. I have my criteria, we all do. I seek level headed, mature, positive (but cynical) good humored, REAL people. Roleplay clouds this for me in an online enviornment, so it is not easy for me to see behind the roleplay
  
• Lastly, summing it up, there is a law of reality to be aware of
  ..."You get out at least what you put in." By putting in all our hearts and souls, we get a tremendous gaming experience full of heart and soul. We become very vested in the outcomes of the game, both short and long term. We all will reap what we all sow, communally and individually.
  

	09-09-2003 00:42									#333
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by DAVOUT At least half of the posters will desagree, but I want to declare that I am bored to hear * it is only a game*, in so many different contexts. This sentence a no meaning whatsoever for a real gamer. What is a real gamer? Somebody who, whatever is the game and whoever is the opponent, plays for the win. He cant prevent himself from totally and naturally concentrating on the game he is playing, and at this very moment the game IS the life. He will not be distracted by anything except one : accusation of cheating. That explains that real gamers will normally not be very interested in collateral activities such as trash talking that they considered as not part of the game. But when the trash talking comes to subjects like honor and fairness, the breaching of which could be seen as a licit cheating, they can not see the humour, and react accordingly.

Wow. Someone gets it. *dance*

quote: In real life, the aristocratic behaviour was to look like being serious on frivole matters, and being frivole on serious matters. Are not the Strategy Guys the artistocrats of Apolyton ?

I wouldn't say that the 'Strategy Guys' hold any distinction other than being hard core gamers as you mentioned above. The fact is that some of GS have been turned off by the antics in the public forum to the point of quitting. Some of GS have continued with reduced participation. It boils down to the fact that many of us find distasteful, in a game that we took seriously, that which some others enjoy.

	09-09-2003 01:45									#334
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by ManicStarSeed Just my 2 cents Mss

But a very worthwhile 2 cents it was!

	09-09-2003 02:45									#335
	Full PM-box? Change here!

* Theseus applauds.

H_E, I respect your response as well... I think others have answered for me.

	09-09-2003 05:22									#336
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Interesting. Just got around to reading a lot of this thread. very interesting. Many goodpoints made by many people. So, who wants a beer?

	09-09-2003 05:42									#337
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: [SIZE=1] So no it is not just a game, it is an ongoing social experiment based on a game. The experiment polarizes people into teams and the teams objectives (in game win) and pits teams against each other. In game success requres a coherent team effort exerted over time. People + Contact + Time = Relationships and Memories (fond, or not ...dont forget reputations... all memories). Time also shapes each one us individually. So while winning is all about the game, playing is all about the people and the quality of the experience. Lets make it fun and positive. Just my 2 cents Mss

that is probably the best overall description I've heard so far of what the PTWDG and other demo games really are.

	09-09-2003 06:31									#338
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by GodKing Interesting. Just got around to reading a lot of this thread. very interesting. Many goodpoints made by many people. So, who wants a beer?

I believe I am the first.

Smithwicks, Keiths IPA, or a Warthog from Big Rock Brewery, please.

ps - I concur with your take on this thread.

	09-09-2003 06:42									#339
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

One more thing, I don't think the whole leaving the game thing has got to do with any issues of cheating. I don't think GS or any other team has given even remotely any evidence of cheating. From what I've seen every team has acted in the most proper and chivalrious way as possible.

The issue here wasn't cheating, it was honor. And honor is a touchy thing to some apparently. Honestly I don't see what the big deal about it is since most countries in RL act in self-interested ways and frequently do less-than-honorable things for their own sake. Look at it this way, teams will do all in their power to win, be it betrayal, backstabbing and lying. Period. It is a natural part of diplomatic behavior which has gone on since the beginning of time.

Those being the victims of the dishonor will of course scream bloody murder. What no-one of course will admit is they would probably do the same if the fate of their team depended on it. Is GoW an opportunist machiavellian team? Yes. Is RP? Yes. Is GS? Of course. Ultimately, what's wrong with it? I doubt people would look and frown on GS just because they did everything in their power to win, short of cheating. If you don't play opportunistically, well then, you really aren't truly playing to win.

Finally it all comes down to what part of this game you like the most. For some it might be getting the perfect WF allocation, the perfect queue, the perfect city placement. For others it is to make the perfect negotiation, the perfect treaty, the perfect alliance. I love the psychological aspects of this game, especially during negotiations. I like to see what people say, what made them say it, and try and guess what they're thinking and what their intentions really are. It is that social part of this game which I find most appealing and has kept me active here when sometimes I really should be doing other stuff. All I can say, if you can't take the heat, stay out of the kitchen. If you don't like the heated and emotional aspects of the public forum, then stick with the in-game stuff, if you don't like the number crunching and spread-sheet making, then do the chatting and the negotiation. The ultimate beauty of this game is that there is something for everyone to participate in, no matter what team you are in.

	09-09-2003 08:23									#340
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I stand by GS' honor, notwithstanding the rocks with which we have been pelted.

(hang on, hang on )

I know that's a possible invitation to further flames, but there you have it. I think this thread has evolved into a very mature discussion, which I appreciate tremendously... I think we all understand each other.

And I'll have a Stella Artois, please.

AND, in the opposite direction of the thread title, I'd like to compliment ND and GoW... well played, my friends, well played.

Thus far.

	09-09-2003 08:48									#341
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Theseus I stand by GS' honor, notwithstanding the rocks with which we have been pelted. (hang on, hang on ) I know that's a possible invitation to further flames, but there you have it. I think this thread has evolved into a very mature discussion, which I appreciate tremendously... I think we all understand each other.

Of course you should stand by your team's honor. I don't think anyone would say otherwise despite what other people think. You cuan ultimately fool everyone but the last person you can fool is yourself. Furthermore, if someone would feel flamed by such a comment then that's truly the utmost in being over-sensitive. Same if someone respectfully disagrees with your statement. Sadly some people did feel flamed because of silly things like these. People simply can't be forced to agree on things always. Human nature, simple as that.

You wanna see flames, trolls and provocations? Go to the OTF. This is nothing I can assure you.

quote: AND, in the opposite direction of the thread title, I'd like to compliment ND and GoW... well played, my friends, well played. Thus far.

I'd of course return the compliment to GS. You guys ain't in first place for no reason.

Thus far.

	09-09-2003 11:39									#342
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by GodKing Interesting. Just got around to reading a lot of this thread. very interesting. Many goodpoints made by many people. So, who wants a beer?

Beer is always good, if you drink it with people you like and respect.

Btw, Paul Hanson is abusing your avatar.

	09-09-2003 12:26									#343
	Inflate your Upload Space

Tequila is on sale all month down here (independence month)

anybody want some?

	09-09-2003 12:35									#344
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

No, Tequila makes me shudder. My mother loves it, though, she's a Mexico fan. She once brought me a bottle from Mexico (as if we had none in our stores) and it stood for a while untouched in my house bar. I don't drink much hard drinks, except the occasional vodka or scotch. So my (then still underage) son drank it gulp by gulp. It took him about three months to empty the bottle. I pretended nothing to see.

	09-09-2003 12:46									#345
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

I actually am not that big a tequila fan myself (and neither am I of Mexican food... traitor!) I used to drink it alot during my first year or two of college, but for some reason find it way too strong now. I'm more of a rum and vodka (tonic, not juice) fan. I'm mixed on beer though, I like one two but not a beer drink-a-thon like some of my friends have.

My landlady is 80 years old and drinks about 3 shots of tequila a day. I'm starting to think that perhaps that's the secret to living to old age in good shape (she's amazingly active for someone so old).

	09-09-2003 12:52									#346
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

If you want some real nasty stuff you should try arak, indonesian liquor. Someone told me that it was their national liquor but after tasting it I decided that 'arak' was just their word for 'foul-tasting home-brew, garuanteed to make you sick'

	09-09-2003 14:15									#347
	Support Apolyton

A Tuborg here, please!
But I'd gladly accept a Bitburger, Radeberger, Jever, Stella Artois, Urquell, ... hell, I'd accept any good beer in a good company (and I believe I could find some excellent beer-mates from the PtWDG members)

Last edited by Tiberius on 09-09-2003 at 14:22

	09-09-2003 14:28									#348
	Got spare money?

Speaking of tequila and beer... out of sheer curiosity, me and my gf tried a drink called "Desperado", which is a mix of the two. Beer flavoured with tequila... I would never believe such a weird combination of very different beverages could actually taste SO well. We now buy those on regular basis in the local superstore.

	09-09-2003 14:43									#349
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

You can't be a true Czech if you are mixing beer with something else. That's a sin.

	09-09-2003 15:14									#350
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

I concur. Traitor! You are therefor immediately excluded from Apolyton's Beer Drinkers Party.

(and I doubt the Tequila Drinkers Party would accept you either)

	09-09-2003 15:33									#351
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Actually he can mix it, if he uses his stomach as shaker.

	09-09-2003 15:41									#352
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Yeah, I thought that mixing beer was a sin, too.

But see, it's a bit different... mixing Czech beer with anything else is a sin. Mixing Mexican beer with tequila is perfectly ok... (no offense, Master Zen).

	09-09-2003 16:17									#353
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by vondrack Speaking of tequila and beer... out of sheer curiosity, me and my gf tried a drink called "Desperado", which is a mix of the two. Beer flavoured with tequila... I would never believe such a weird combination of very different beverages could actually taste SO well. We now buy those on regular basis in the local superstore.

That sounds like a drink I have had before - the DEPTH CHARGE. Drop a shot of tequila into a pint of beer. Drink.

* MrWhereItsAt shudders

Horrible horrible stuff. The beer ruins the tequila and vice versa. Mixing beer is either a novelty like this or you mix with lemonade ( a "shandy") and you deserve to be laughed at.

	09-09-2003 16:24									#354
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by vondrack Mixing Mexican beer with tequila is perfectly ok... (no offense, Master Zen).

Aha! Why didn't you say so from the beginning? Btw, why do you keep calling it beer?

	09-09-2003 16:27									#355
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Here a mix of lemonade and beer is called a "bicyclist". Some people drink it if they need to drive soon. I would never touch it. Either I drink beer or lemonade.

An absolute horrible drink is a "submarine". It's a beer with a glass of vodka, i.e. the vodka is scuttled in the beer together with the glass. If you do it cleverly, it remains in the glass and doesn't mix (at least not much). When you drink it then, it is a soft drink first and becomes harder and harder the deeper you get.

	09-09-2003 16:50									#356
	Tired of ads?

Bicyclist? You mean a "Radler" ? I think it is actually OK (read drinkable) if you want to drink and drive. Or so I've heard

	09-09-2003 17:27									#357
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Radlers are grim (and known as a 'Shandy' in the UK). I'll go for a pint of Black Sheep please...

	09-09-2003 18:25									#358
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Tiberius Bicyclist? You mean a "Radler" ? I think it is actually OK (read drinkable) if you want to drink and drive. Or so I've heard

Yes. "Bicyclist" is "Radler" in English. I wouldn't drink it anyway. Neither would I drink and drive.

	09-09-2003 19:42									#359
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And that's why I love Poly. Only the posters here can take a thread started as "spite and malice" and turn it into 'beer and tequila".

Quite a nice transition I think.

	09-09-2003 19:43									#360
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The only problem that I have with pub (i.e. Bar) drinking, is that the drinks are too D*mn expensive and that's not including the tip...

My Poisen is mainly srewdrivers (vodka and Orange juice), but I also have beers and (rarely) some other drinks. But I don't do it to much, dispite that cost, because I just don't have the time for it AND I don't want to have problems with the cops later.... So it's just better to stay home.

E_T