29-08-2003 11:03									#241
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now that you mention it I had only read the first two pages

(and now I'm realizing I've kinda added things which were already said and explained...)

	29-08-2003 11:07									#242
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The bull in his civgroup icons released the next pile of ****.

	29-08-2003 11:17									#243
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MZ seems to think we are angry that GoW declared war over the cities. We are not. We expected they would do it. We ourselves would have been sorely tested to not attack them if the situations were reversed, and we have yet to meet a team with which we have broken every single agreement we ever had with them.

They should get over the **** they themselves do, then maybe they can move on.

	29-08-2003 11:25									#244
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph As for the ISDG, I think I left the team at the right time. At this time I already could see, that the team spirit is pretty bad. I'm not surprised to hear, that this didn't get much better. I never regret this step, even though I'm inactive now in my new team and thus, practically out of the game. I have to admit, that after the last pile of flames and insults I have serious personal issues with many of the active GoW members. This is not limited to this game anymore and not at all "only skin deep". I'm at a point, where I won't join any new game, be it a demogame or only a PBEM, with these people. And I deleted MZO from my links list. I tried to calm things down, but in return I got basically (with other words), that it can't be helped, the flames won't stop and if I don't like it, I can bugger off. Strangely, this feeling is limited to GoW, since ND does not participate in the flame wars and limits its contribution to calm and mostly insightful comments.

Sir Ralph,

I understand you were one of the people felt the remarks by some of us GoWers were personal insults. I have tried once and again to explain that they weren't yet for some reason that has been as yet unsatisfactory. In return it seems to me that you choose to boycott somethings even as trivial as a PBEM for these grudges. Is that any better than the grudges we supposedly have with GSers as people? I don't see Theseus, or Arrian, or OPD, or nye reacting this way, and my my, some of them like nye have quite a temper when they're pissed off.

What is worse, I have YET to see proof of a direct insult or flame towards a GSer like you claim. Yes we flaunted your TEAM'S honor code, yes, we called you opportunists and traitors FOR YOUR TEAM'S IN-GAME ACTIONS. I any of this getting through? At all? Have we not betrayed and backstabbed in PBEMs or MPs or whatever? Does this makes us real life jerks and traitors?

ITS A GODDAMN GAME FOR CHRISTSAKES!!!!!

And by the way, this is the second time you mention MZO in your posts as if it had anything to do with this. If that is not a personal grudge against me then I don't know what is... For the last time (and yes, I promise this is the last time I say this) I have no beef with any GSer, but it sure seems to me some of your have beef with us...

Finally, your laments on not joining our ISDG are totally out of place since frankly you have not the slightest darn clue of what our team spirit is since you are not a part of it. I must tell you that we argue just like any team with opposing viewpoints argues. Yet if it weren't for the ISDG, Apolyton spirit would have been much more collapsed due to the rivalries in the PTWDG. If it weren't for the ISDG I would not have had the pleasure to know and bond with people like nye, Trip, MrWIA, Togas, Arnelos, BigFree, Zargon, WhiteBandit, OPD, NuclearWinter, E_T, Vondrack, etc etc etc, my my my, it's a very long list. THat these people, many of who are my "enemies" in the PTWDG, are in the top rank of my Apolyton friends should be proof enough of just how "this hasn't gotten any better".

	29-08-2003 11:28									#245
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither MZ seems to think we are angry that GoW declared war over the cities. We are not. We expected they would do it. We ourselves would have been sorely tested to not attack them if the situations were reversed, and we have yet to meet a team with which we have broken every single agreement we ever had with them. They should get over the **** they themselves do, then maybe they can move on.

I know quite well you aren't angry over that since it is more than obvious you did it on purpose release yourself from the obligations of the NAP by that point. I was slammed for having even asked you for permission in crossing the borders, yet this was done knowing quite well the odds of you accepting were almost nil.

In fact, I am quite aware that GS is not mad at us at all for in-game reasons. We did what you wanted us to do didn't you?

	29-08-2003 11:29									#246
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph The bull in his civgroup icons released the next pile of ****.

And civgroup icon gravity dictates it bounced off your GS shield and landed right in your golden cup.

	29-08-2003 11:34									#247
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen And by the way, this is the second time you mention MZO in your posts as if it had anything to do with this. If that is not a personal grudge against me then I don't know what is...

For once you are right. It is a personal grudge.

quote: Originally posted by Master Zen Finally, your laments on not joining our ISDG are totally out of place since frankly you have not the slightest darn clue of what our team spirit is since you are not a part of it. I must tell you that we argue just like any team with opposing viewpoints argues. Yet if it weren't for the ISDG, Apolyton spirit would have been much more collapsed due to the rivalries in the PTWDG. If it weren't for the ISDG I would not have had the pleasure to know and bond with people like nye, Trip, MrWIA, Togas, Arnelos, BigFree, Zargon, WhiteBandit, OPD, NuclearWinter, E_T, Vondrack, etc etc etc, my my my, it's a very long list. THat these people, many of who are my "enemies" in the PTWDG, are in the top rank of my Apolyton friends should be proof enough of just how "this hasn't gotten any better".

I was a part of the team at the beginning. I left it, because I was unhappy with the team spirit. Thus, I'm not judging from outside, but extrapolating the feelings I had at this time, and it is you, who has no ****ing clue.

	29-08-2003 11:37									#248
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph I was a part of the team at the beginning. I left it, because I was unhappy with the team spirit. Thus, I'm not judging from outside, but extrapolating the feelings I had at this time, and it is you, who has no ****ing clue.

That was around the time I joined, in February. Six months ago.

Things change, and don't tell me I don't have a ****ing clue about a team I'm actually in.

Anybody else care to comment on the ISDG's team spirit?

	29-08-2003 11:52									#249
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MZ,

Until you learn some basic principles of social interaction, for example that words are often interpreted how they sound rather than how you meant them to sound, you will remain so tactless and continue to insult and hurt people who could otherwise be amongst your best friends.

	29-08-2003 12:05									#250
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Phew

And here I was, thinking that this thread had really become too Luvy Duvy for my liking, and then Master Zen jumps in with two gum boots and stirs it right up for me

Woo Hoo MZ .... you rock




I am sorry .. cold hardcore analysis of recent game events is OK for a while, but I do prefer gold ol' Flame Threads the best.
Perhaps it's because I play Unreal way too much with my mates. Its quite normal to call someone a "sneaky camping M**** F***ker sniping piece of Sh!t" 4-5 times a game. It's all ingame agro, and everyone knows and laughs about it.

	29-08-2003 12:20									#251
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There's the difference between Civ3 and Unreal and others.
FPS games come and go, but in a game of this nature people invest hundreds of hours of their past time, develop a fondness for their teams (in most cases), take pride in their work and so on. You just can't even begin to compare the two.
I too love to play FPS games with my friends, and I too taunt them during games and they taunt me back. Believe me, I know the joys of FPS flaming all too well.

	29-08-2003 13:14									#252
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It's time for everyone to back away from this thread.

It IS only a game. It's getting way too personal.

If only panag were here to report this thread....

	29-08-2003 13:27									#253
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Shiber and Hot_Enamel, my fellow FPS breathen!

I just want to say:

I 0wn u!!!



In all honesty, I think everyone here needs to play some FPS games some more, it relieves some of that stress, especially when you name the bots after MasterZen. . . Hehe, joking!

	29-08-2003 14:07									#254
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Sigh... finally we had steered away from personal insults and flame wars, only to get those same flames and arguments repeated again. MZ, no offense, but in the future please read all the pages before posting multi-post rants. Those are not exactly good foor 'poly-spirit. Especially if they do not contain any new info.

DeepO

	29-08-2003 17:58									#255
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I was rather enjoying the strategic discussion.

A BIG to Beta! Thanks for posting that internal Voxian stuff! And yes, the decision to attack us wasn't really your mistake - it was the timing. Hit us earlier, before feudalism, and you could have really hurt us. I dunno about totally conquering us, but you coulda taken a bite outta us, and then maybe fought us to a standstill (and then we'd both be small and weak, heh).

MZ - read the rest of the thread. And, though I've gotten over it because I know you're a good guy (from MZO & our OTF discussions), some of the things you've said here have pissed me off too, like Sir Ralph (just not as much, I guess). Especially when you try and make GS look like dealbreakers. That's laughable, given GoW's record. But I think it's fair to say that neither side is gonna "win" that debate, so let's just drop it, eh? And let the pixelated swords do the talking...

-Arrian

	29-08-2003 19:24									#256
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This is where we need the international court.
Not a UN .. but a Poly member who has no ties with any team....Perhaps Trip ??

Each team presents their case to the court, and a decision is made.
Just like the old SPDG court.

And the effects of the decision... absolutely nothing
No penalties, reimbursment or stupid UN resolutions.

Just settlement of an argument

I would really like to know if a reasonably person would consider GS actions as hostile, and a break of the NAP they signed with GoW.

Also, if RP had the right to expect an implied NAP when they signed the MPP with GoW.

These two issues are the largest and most argued points IMO. And it will give our writers something more interesting to do, other than flame each other to death.

(Although thats fun to read as well )

	29-08-2003 20:09									#257
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Hey, Beta

I see you're watching this thread. Can you re-authorize me and OPD for the ISDG, please?

	29-08-2003 20:55									#258
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quote: Originally posted by BigFree If only panag were here to report this thread....

No! Not that!

	29-08-2003 20:57									#259
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I made two long posts in response to the first two pages of this thread and to shed some light on GoW's perspective on some things regarding diplomacy with the other teams, and our feelings towards others. There were no flames or insults in those two posts just responses to people and mostly trying to put a GoW perspective on things being that I was the CoFA during this whole bloody mess. Re-read them if you please.

Then someone said that was all a pile of BS.

Tell me, in all honestly, who starts the flaming here? If hearing GoW's perspective on things is by nature a "flame" to some of you, then I'm sorry to see that other points of view are taken as insults. We stand by what we believe. I'm sure RP and GS also belive in their own righteousness in this great crusade. What strikes me as unfair is that whenever a GoWer states his arguments it is implicitly taken as offensive and insulting. We truly believe GS betrayed us, is that so hard to understand to you people at all? Is the thought of somebody else feeling betrayed by GS unsettling?

So, to make a long story short, where is the insult and where is the flame in what we've written? If GoW's viewpoint infuriates people so much, well, this is simply because GoW and GS or RP are simply incompatible teams, with different ideologies and different ways to win. If you look at RL, perhaps know you will understand why some people feel infuriated at Bush's claims of "liberating the iraqui people" since they believe that to be hogwash wheras many Americans truthfuly believe it. On the other hand, you have Americans infuriated at the French or Germans for theire distinct way of trying to make this a better world. So, it all ends up as people getting pissed at others because they cling on to a truth that is opposite from theirs.

So, again, where are the insults in GoW's statements? Why isn't GoW getting pissed at all the BS that's been handed down our throats. We have been called cowards by nye, Arnelos, BigFree, etc. We have been called ND's b*tches in person in the chat room by Togas. We have been told that GoW has no balls by some of those same people. Yet now we open our mouths and are treated like the worst social scum in existence. Talk about double standards.

	29-08-2003 22:08									#260
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quote: Originally posted by Hot_Enamel This is where we need the international court. Not a UN .. but a Poly member who has no ties with any team....Perhaps Trip ?? Each team presents their case to the court, and a decision is made. Just like the old SPDG court. And the effects of the decision... absolutely nothing No penalties, reimbursment or stupid UN resolutions. Just settlement of an argument

Somehow, I don't think one outsider's point of view would settle the argument

	29-08-2003 22:16									#261
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen We have been called ND's b*tches in person in the chat room by Togas.

But that's TRUE!

Not that there's anything wrong with that, mind you...

	29-08-2003 22:17									#262
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quote: But that's TRUE!

No it is not. They are partners.
They had their reasons to act like they did and you know it!

	29-08-2003 22:31									#263
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quote: Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx Hey, Beta I see you're watching this thread. Can you re-authorize me and OPD for the ISDG, please?

Ok no problem.

Where did you guys go? To the powder room together like two women at a party?

	29-08-2003 22:33									#264
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If my non-flaming posts caused MZ (Mr. "I don't hold any grudges" himself), to rant for nearly an entire page worth of this thread, obviously I struck a nerve

As for us telling you we were as intent on GS not winning the game as you when in negotiations with you, I honestly can't believe you fell for that. I can only assume this must be an attempt at propaganda which won't work.

If, by some miracle, you actually DID fall for that, it only serves to proove point #1: GoW believe that teams on their sh*tlist are hated by all other teams as much as GoW.

Right about now, RP is entirely fine with ANYONE winning the game as long as it's not GoW or ND

	29-08-2003 22:34									#265
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quote: Originally posted by Darekill No it is not. They are partners. They had their reasons to act like they did and you know it!

Ah... sweet pillow talk from Darekill.

It's ok, really... we certainly are not in an entirely equal relationship with GS either... I guess the distinction is that we know that.

	29-08-2003 22:43									#266
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Can't help it but I think spain is not much more than a Puppet now. Beeing played by the big Pupeteer over there in Estonia. But well, I guessyou tell yourself better that then dead.

	29-08-2003 22:55									#267
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This is all rather silly. It's a 2 on 2 war. Of course each side is coordinating their moves.

Oh, and Darekill - you may call our continent whatever you wish. So long as the blue banner of the Storm flies over its cities, however, your alternate names for Stormia will have little credibility.

-Arrian

	29-08-2003 23:22									#268
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Oh, and Darekill - you may call our continent whatever you wish. So long as the blue banner of the Storm flies over its cities, however, your alternate names for Stormia will have little credibility. -Arrian

Maybe he was just thinking long term.

	29-08-2003 23:27									#269
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Jesus, will people relax a friggin' bit??!!!

MZ, I respect your views and approach. I completely understand that your beefs are in-game.

To everyone else, I understand that some have been pissed off or offended.

Can everyone just give it a rest please?

	29-08-2003 23:46									#270
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus Jesus, will people relax a friggin' bit??!!! MZ, I respect your views and approach. I completely understand that your beefs are in-game. To everyone else, I understand that some have been pissed off or offended. Can everyone just give it a rest please?

Amen to that.